9kV 50mA tesla coil NST question. Why does the circuit breaker in my home trip when i plug in my NST?

please someone help, this is my first tesla coil project, my setup:

230VAC 50Hz input
ricci 9000v 50ma NST with a built in GFI (ground fault interrupter) but i bypassed the gfi succesfully .see pics
safety gap 
7,5 cm diameter pvc secondary
1000 turns #24 magnetwire (0,5mm) secondary
10 turns 8mm copper pipe primary (tapped at 7 turns)
saltwater capacitor 16 green beer bottles in a bucket with a capacitance of 0,0122 uF or 12,2 nF (thegeekgroup bucket cap)
static spark gap 28mm diameter stainless steel spheres as electrodes with oven fan (temporary, i am building a hyperbaric gap)
10cmx27,5cm aluminum toroid topload with a brass screw as breakout point
RF ground aluminum rod 1,2 meter 

When i tested the coil for the first time the spark gap was set on 6mm and i got 20cm or 8inch streamers without breakout point but the gfi on my nst tripped after a few seconds.

i didn't know there was a built in gfi on my nst so i fooled around with my spark gap and safety gap and the tapping point on the primary hoping to get better performance. after a few runs the gfi started to trip very fast and i could only run the coil with the spark gap set on max 2mm, any bigger then that would trip the gfi on the nst. so i found out that it had a gfi and i bypassed it with thick wire. Then when i ran the nst i got the exact same thing but with my circuit breaker in my home. i have made a video on youtube that shows the problem here is the link: (please help)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piH44ohowyE

please anyone help me! Any help or suggestion is very welkom!

Picture of 9kV 50mA tesla coil NST question. Why does the circuit breaker in my home trip when i plug in my NST?
9000-50 nst.jpg
ground rod.jpg
ground wire explained.jpg
sparkgap.jpg
tankcap 0.0122 uF.jpg
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iceng5 years ago
A GFI ( Ground Fault Interrupter ) operates when the current coming from the unit under power is different from the current going out to it.

The inference being the tiny amount of current difference is assumed to
be traveling through a dying person and both sides of the line are disconnected ! !

Try a clamp around on ammeter on the ground wire and see if it reads a pulse.

TesslaCircuit.gif
colinbarnes (author)  iceng5 years ago
thanks a lot for your help! i'll try that as soon as i can get my hands on an ammeter, a friend of mine is an electricien so that shouldn't be a problem. But lets say it reads a pulse on the ground wire, what is causing this and can i fix it? btw it even trips the breaker if i don't ground the nst at all.

thanks a bunch for wanting to help me out!!
You might be inducing a flux transfer in the wiring on your floor loops.
I would run gnd wires to one point ONLY
colinbarnes (author)  iceng5 years ago
one point only. ok so you mean i shouldn't loop any wires? should i roll it out so i got one straight(ish) wire to the rod or you mean ALL my wire, so also my 230v mains wire?

thanks again!
Yes, and yes
Clean wiring is essential :-)
Keep in mind the Tesla can link to appliances in and Above your Laboratory
causing that breaker tripping ground loop.

BTW Steve asked a very good question
"is your GFI failing .... or an ..... ordinary breaker ?"

WHY ?

A GFI breaker acts fast. ( Could be an induced trickle in the wrong place )

While an ordinary breaker is acting on a sizable current above the rated value on the toggle.
( Means you have a measurable ground loop type flowing through your fuse box )

colinbarnes (author)  iceng5 years ago
OK it's good to know that clean wiring is important, i'll fix that asap thanks!
If this solves the problem i'll let you guys know.

i didn't realise the difference between the two (gfi/ordinary breaker) but you explained it pretty good thanks.

It's the "aardlekschakelaar" in dutch (i live in holland) which is a GFI (ground fault interrupter) in english ( "ground leakage switch" is the exact translation) which trips everytime i open the gap wider then 2mm. and it trips with either the nst grounded (rf or mains) or not grounded at all. i live in a 2yr old house which has a fuse box in which every fuse (or group we call them) is protected by a ground leakage switch. the ordinary breaker tripped only once when i tried bypassing the built-in-gfi of my nst the wrong way.

i did connect a MOT (to just the spark gap and later to 2 wires) today and it didn't trip the gfi or breaker of my fuse box. With the 2 wires it produced some nasty sparks. (mot grounded to mains, wires taped to a long pvc pipe, i know it would kill me)
Doesn't this mean my nst is useless or broken?

But let me try and explain what i understand from what you are saying: the loops of my wires might cause the gfi in my fuse box to measure less current coming out of the nst then going in to it, which trips it. sorry if i didn't get this right my english isn't the best (and my knowledge isn't either lol)

thanks again,

Colin
But let me try and explain what i understand from what you are saying: the loops of my wires might cause the gfi in my fuse box to measure less current coming out of the nst then going in to it, which trips it. sorry if i didn't get this right my english isn't the best (and my knowledge isn't either lol)

Pretty well, yes. You have a tiny imbalance - 20mA in the current in your PRIMARY that's causing the problem, hence my suggestion that you leakage test your NST - it MAY be damaged, or you may have wired it oddly ;-)

Steve
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
OK thanks i'll fix the loops in the wiring and if that doesn't help i'll try and get my hands on a multimeter and do a leakage test.

let's say i fixed the loops and the gfi still trips...
I have never used a multimeter so.. i'll ask the electricien from who i'm borrowing it to help me with that.
I guess i'll have to measure the ingoing and outgoing current on the primary of the nst and if there is a (greater then 20mA? or any difference at all??) diffence the nst is damaged?

other then the loops i don't think i did anything wrong with the wiring since it's just a hot, neutral and a ground wire from the mains that's wired.

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME!! I really do a appreciate it!

Colin
gfi bypassed lid not needed.jpggfi without lid.jpg
Your friend may well have an earth leakage tester, or "Megger" as we know them in the UK. See what that tells you about your NST. I reckon that's the weak link.

DISCONNECT the NST from your whole Tesla system ! Does the GFI still blow ???
Steve
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
he might have it i'll ask him.

the more answers i get the more i strart to think i bought a broken nst for 100 euros without a recieve or bill or whatever it's called :( not nice from that neon glass blower dude :(

well there is still some hope for my nst but i think im going to make a motstack with a mot as ballast if the nst is broken.

I connected a single mot to the whole tesla system and it didn't trip the breaker or the gfi, but what do you mean "disconnect the nst" just connect mains directly to the safety gap and static spark gap you mean?

Colin
Nope, the NST output voltage is automatically limited, and can't exceed the voltage on the label. Just plug in the completely unconnected transformer (apart, obviously, from the primary). What happens ? If the breaker goes, the NST is dead.

Steve
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
ooh im sorry yeah i tried that allready and the ground fault interrupter in my house tripped so i guess it's bye bye R.I.P. nst then :(

i was kind of afraid that was the case so i bought 2 microwave ovens today at a recycle shop for 23 euros together and made a 2 motstack out of them with a 3rd mot (which i allready had) as a ballast.
since one mot doesn't trip either the breaker or the gfi in my house, i figured it shouln't blow with a ballasted 2motstack right?? but i'm a bit scared to plug it in because im like 99,999999999% sure i did it right but i want you guys to confirm that so here are some pics of it. im also posting this as a question on instructables. just to be sure i don't want to kill myself or the transformers :D
2motstackballastedexplained.jpg

je kan de current limitten met een cap in series met de transformators.
met 70 uF zit je op ongeveer 5 ac amps current als de sparkgap clapped.
ook kan ik je aanraden de maximale current verder te killing door wat MO caps in je setup to te passen.
2 uF per kant zal een betere preformance geven(+2000 & -2000)

Looks OK, but bear in mind that one of those MOT secondaries is sitting several KV hotter than its intended to, WRT earth. Me, I'd try a better NST....

Steve
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
ok well thanks, i might buy a new nst next month.
what do you mean with "WRT"? im dutch so please forgive me for not knowing what you just said :D
With respect to .
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
ok well, i don't get the "with respect to earth part" :S
hotter then intended, with respect to earth?
One transformer swings X KV above earth, the lower voltage terminal on the second transformer swings X KV above earth (which it wasn't designed to do, and the OTHER pin on the second transformer is now TWICE as hot as it was designed to be !

colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
is there a way to work around this? or is this always the case with MOTstacks and is that why you said i should use a better nst?
Its the way of it, a slight risk from using MOTs in series connection- lets face it, an NST is DESIGNED to deliver what you want, you're hacking a solution using MOTs.

5kV can jump 5mm in air without any problem, more off a pointy contact.

Hence I suggest you try and get a decent NST.

Steve

ik heb het zelfde probleem hier.
het komt hoogstwaarschijnlijk omdat 1 zijde van je secundaire coil aan de ground zit?
wanneer ik met mijn coil de ground van secundaire skip blijft de aardlek namelijk wel in
maar krijg je nasty sparks naar de primary
de enigste manier om dit te fixxen is een groep aan te leggen die niet achter de aardlekschakelaar zit.
een "expirimentele groep"
dus ff een 16 amp breaker toevoegen direct vanaf de hoofdleiding.

But let me try and explain what i understand from what you are saying: the loops of my wires might cause the gfi in my fuse box to measure less current coming out of the nst then going in to it, which trips it. sorry if i didn't get this right my english isn't the best (and my knowledge isn't either lol)

Pretty well, yes. You have a tiny imbalance - 20mA in the current in your PRIMARY that's causing the problem, hence my suggestion that you leakage test your NST - it MAY be damaged, or you may have wired it oddly ;-)

Steve
Check the earth leakage of the NST, it may have become faulty, and the primary is leaking to earth
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
sorry for being a noob but how should that be done? probably with a multimeter right, but were should i connect it? thanks for the help!
gfibypassed.jpg
Can you show me what the lid does ? Its a connector of some kind isn't it ?

I'd also like you to see if there NO connection from the primary to the secondary, or if there is - use your meter's continuity measurement.

Steve
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
The lid used to be the way to connect to gfi to the nst and at the same time the connector between the 230v in and the primary of the nst via 6 spade switches (or knife switches). so if would plug in the nst without the lid it wouldn't do anything. But i removed the gfi from the lid, so now the is just a lid and i bypassed the gfi with some wire and it works (if the gap is set 2mm or closer) but it will trip the fuse box gfi as soon as i open the gap any further :(

btw if i plug in a MOT it doesn't trip the gfi or breaker of the fuse box, doesn't this mean my nst is broken or useless.

here are some pics, the first showing the lid with the gfi placed were it used to be and the whole thing bypassed the right way with wires. the second showing the gfi/connector attached to the nst without the lid. and the third is just the gfi/connector (i had to remove the thing from the lid to see both sides, to know how to bypass it)

i don't know how to check if there is a connection from the primary to the secondary.

thanks again!!

Colin

gfi bypassed lid not needed.jpggfi without lid.jpggfitop.jpg
You're not being a noob by the way, there's nothing wrong with this question - even is pros are having to test different ideas about where the fault is !

BTW, is your GFI failing or an ordinary breaker ?

Steve
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
it's always the gfi in my fuse box that trips, not the ordinary breaker, sorry for mixing them up. it's either the gfi on nst that trips or the gfi of my fuse box, if the gap is set at 2mm or more, or if i turn it on without any wires attached to the two terminals at all. thanks for the help!! i like this community! so many people trying to help, that's just awesome.
JahangirA81 year ago
RahulS102 years ago

the infrence being operater when the current coming from the such way of curent side war the blow of current make a thorough of tevnical

You're creating too much earth leakage from your connection, possibly because you are grounding somehting you shouldn't have.

Show your circuit diagram.

Steve
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
thanks for the help! i grounded the strike rail, the safety gap, the bottom of the secondary and the NST to RF ground. i used the circuit diagram from deepfriedneon.com

but have you seen the video, because that shows the exact problem
here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piH44ohowyE
coil_schematic.jpg
Just confirming; nst ground isn't the same as earth ground (rf ground) right?
colinbarnes (author)  frollard5 years ago
i have always connected all the ground wires to a 3ft aluminum RF ground rod, but since that wasn't working i also tried connected the nst to mains ground an i even tried to not ground it at all, but it all had the same effect, it tripped the GFI on my nst or in my home if i bypassed the nst-gfi.
ground wire explained.jpggfibypassed.jpg
colinbarnes (author)  steveastrouk5 years ago
here is a pic of all the ground connections explained
ground wire explained.jpg