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Does anyone have an instructable regarding how to make a water ionizer machine?

Does anyone have an instructable regarding how to make a water ionizer machine? The ones I've checked on the internet are too pricey for my wallet.
Thanks.
themamma

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merrypius5 years ago
Hi,
Its always good to purchase the best ionizer from market than making one. Because its all related with yours and your family's health. So please don't go for a try. There are ionizers available in affordable prices also.

Give more preference to the filter quality and performance of the water ionizer machine. I'll suggest you the Tyent USA water ionizers. Just go through the reviews of Tyent USA water ionizers. Its the best in filter quality and performance and also affordable among water ionizers.

Water Ionizers
Yes.  Someone has written an 'ible regarding how to make a "water ionizer machine".   Here:
https://www.instructables.com/id/Water-Alkalizer-or-Ioniser-for-5/

There may be other instructables, but that's the one that was easy to find.  I would have mentioned it sooner, but I previously did not have a good grasp of what is this artifact about which you are asking.

But now I know, or I know more than I used to know, and a lot of what provided the clues for me was a document thoughtfully provided by waterone  This was provided in a pdf attached below. It's a collection of a dozen, literally 12, articles providing much insight into the legend of these magic water machines.

(Click this link, and it should save you trouble of scrolling down to find it.)
https://www.instructables.com/answers/Does-anyone-have-an-instructable-regarding-how-to-/?comments=all#C4CCIDJGQRBO3EK

For the benefit of those who are new to the topic, I am going to attempt to recount the legend of "electrolytically reduced water", and the "water ionizer" machines that produce it.

The machine itself typically consists of an electrolysis cell, divided into two compartments separated by an ion-permeable membrane.  The membrane is there so that the electrolyte in the chamber surrounding the anode, cannot mix with the electrolyte in the chamber surrounding the cathode.    As current is driven though the cell, the pH of the electrolyte in each chamber changes.  The pH of the electrolyte water in the anode chamber drops, i.e. becomes more acidic.  The pH of the electrolyte water in the cathode chamber increases, i.e. becomes more alkaline. The separator is important because something:  a membrane, a salt bridge... something is required to keep the water in the two compartments separated.  Otherwise, these two volumes of water would just mix and neutralize each other.

Those of you with a background in chemistry are no doubt wondering: What ions were dissolved in the water in the first place?  Assuming both chambers started with water that was chemically identical, that water had to have something ionic in it, be it acid, or base, or salt.  The reason why is because pure water is a very poor conductor of electricity.  Certainly, water self ionizes, as 2 H2O = H3O+ + OH-, but the fraction of water molecules in a beaker of pure water that actually are self ionized that way, like the right side of the equation, at any given instant, is only like 10-7

For the story I'm telling here, you may assume the starting electrolyte in both chambers is an aqueous solution of sodium chloride.  Thus this electrolysis cell looks a lot like the membrane cell used for the Chloralkali process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process

And the products of the "water ionizer" electrolysis reaction are similar too.  You get H2 gas and dissolved NaOH on the cathode side, and you get Cl2 gas and maybe some dissolved hypoclorous and hydrochloric acid via Cl2 reacting with water: Cl2 + H2O = HClO + HCl. Also O2 might be forming at the anode too.  I think the potentials for forming Cl2 and O2 might be close enough that the two would compete with one another.  In terms of pH, the cathode water is becoming more alkaline, the anode water is becoming more acidic.
In practice, the actual salt used might not be litterally salt, NaCl, but I want to give everyone a clear picture of the underlying process. And as a bonus it's related to the chloralkali process, which is well known story among chemistry students.  In fact there's an 'ible on how to make NaOH from NaCl via a homemade chloralkali cell, here:
https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Lye-From-Salt-and-Gelatin/

That's a description of what the machine does, but why would anyone outside of the chloralkali business want to do this?  I.e. what does one do with the pH-altered solutions thus produced?  And this is part where the legend comes in. 

According to legend, you call the water from the cathode chamber electrolytically reduced water, ERW, and you drink it, and it's good for you because it has low ORP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidation_reduction_potential
That is to say the water contains something like a reducing agent, or anti-oxidizing agent, or antioxidant, something with electrons-to-give,  and this something can go forth and react with oxidizers, also called free radicals, already present in your body, and it can neutralize them. Just to clarify, the oxidizers already present in your body, are bad.  Thus sending something to go mop them up, or react with them and make them harmless, that something would be a, good thing, i.e. beneficial and promoting health. There is some speculation/rumor on what the actual antioxidant, or reducing agent is.  It might be dissolved hydrogen gas. It might be pixie dust.  I don't totally understand it, but in any case, this is the legend, as best as I am able to interpret it.

So what about the water in the other compartment?  In contrast to the ERW produced in the cathode chamber, the water in the anode chamber is called electrolytically oxidized water, or EOW.  As you might expect: ERW and EOW are as different from one another as blue kryptonite and green kryptonite.  Obviously you do not want to drink the EOW, the oxidized water.  However the EOW is not totally useless either.  The EOW can be used as a topical dissinfectant, since it is a mild oxidizer.  It kills germs, so you can wash your hands with it.  Moreover, if applied to injured flesh, like cuts and burns, it will help these wounds heal faster.  Claims like these are addressed in that collection of articles waterone posted.

Sounds like good stuff, right? So how does one make such an amazing machine, with two kinds of magic water on tap?

The first thing to do is figure out what it is the pros are doing. Well, actually the first thing is to figure out: Who are the pros anyway?  Oftentimes the researchers make their own machine, and they (sort of) tell you how they did it. In other cases the researchers use a mass produced machine, and they refer to the model, and the company that makes it. In the articles waterone posted I noticed two specific models of machine, from two different companies.

ROX-20TA water generator from Hoshizaki Electric
Note this machine is intended only for making the acidic EOW, oxidized water, intended for use as a disinfectant. Also it runs on NaCl, so that acid water contains  HClO acid.
http://www.hoshizakiamerica.com/ROX_Brochure.pdf
http://www.hoshizakiamerica.com/manuals/ROX-20TA-U_serv.pdf


TI-9000,8000 from Nihon Trim
This machine is intended to make both alkaline ERW water for drinking and acid EOW disinfectant water. 
http://www.nihon-trim.co.jp/english/pdf/2005catalog.pdf
http://www.nihon-trim.co.jp/english/pdf/2002catalog.pdf

If anyone can turn up an actual service manual for the Nihon Trim machine(s), that would be helpful.  I couldn't find one, even with help from almighty Google, but someone else will have better luck.


Also I turned up some patent numbers. These were issued by the US Patent Office.  Certainly there are probably others, Japanese and International, but the USPTO is the one I know how to search. I just searched for company name in the assignee name  field, and these just popped up.

Hoshizaki USPatents related to electrolyic water:
7713403, 6592727, 6096177, 5728274

Nihon Trim USPatents related to electrolyic water:
6475371,6623615, 5938915

There's a lot of details, too many to mention, so I'll just mention some of the salient features that I remember.

The electrodes should be inert, not consumed by the electrolysis. Platinum coated titanium is mentioned a lot, but those things are expensive.  Carbon (graphite) rods from carbon-zinc batteries will probably work.  Heating them to glowing orange with a torch, will help burn/boil off the battery chemicals they were previously immersed in.

There was also mention of switching the polarity every batch, to prevent mineral buildup on these electrodes.

Also mention of a constant current regulator, to supply the cell with constant current.

Some implementations use a conductivity sensor, to figure out what quantity of salt to add initially.  The sensor is needed due to variability of the mineral content of the intitial tap water. Something like this is not needed if you start your cell with a prepared solution of known concentration.

Probably the most perplexing thing for the homebrew designer is going to be figuring out what to use for the separator.  cegu, the author of the 'ible mentioned at the top, used a sponge. egbertfitzwilly used a saltbridge made from unflavored gelatin for his related, but for a different purpose, cell.

So there you go.  That's everything I know about "water ionizer" machines.  It may be more or less than you wanted to know.
orksecurity5 years ago
Per Wikipedia: "A water ionizer is an appliance that ionizes water. Although there is no empirical evidence that ionized water is beneficial to human health, it is marketed with claims that it is an antioxidant and can slow aging and prevent disease.[1] Such claims contradict basic laws of chemistry and physiology.[2]"

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Water_ionizer
orksecurity,

Wikipedia is basically a place for people to publish in a pseudo scientific forum their opinions on topics. Wiki asks for substantiation, but even that is not necessarily factual.

Regarding your repeating wiki's unfounded claim that "Such claims contradict basic laws of chemistry and physiology.", if you request it from me, I will forward a 100+ page PDF document with abstracts, articles and studies on "electrically reduced water" (ERW) as it is scientifically called. Most are from Japan where it has been part of the medical practice for over 35 years.

waterone
jandl510@hotmail.com
You can post your pdf here. The "add images" button works for uploading files that are not necessarily images, including pdfs. The pdf attached I've attached to this reply is just an example, something already in my "image library", to demonstrate this trick actually works.
barbiedir.pdf(612x792) 130 KB
Thank you, Jack. I did not know that.

A warning: these studies have been known to induce extreme drowsiness and even deep sleep. Read at your own peril!

Took a few tries to get it to work properly but we got it!

Happy reading!
Hey W!   I thank you for the effort involved in posting that document.  It is  refreshing when someone provides some meaningful links to the topic being discussed, even if indirectly.  What I enjoy most about these articles, is that a number of them provide references that actually answer the OP's question, with respect to "How do I build one of these electrolyzer gizmos?"

Somehow the topic seemed to have strayed into the question of "Does it work, or not?", and that's not exactly the question that was being asked.

Also annoying is the way everyone assumes the jargon of their profession or culture is instantly understandable by everyone else.  I mean I'd never heard of a "water ionizer machine" before, but somehow the OP assumes that everyone is familiar with this machine, or wants responses only from persons who are familiar with it, but that might turn out to be no one.

Thanks again for the info.  A summary of what this thing actually is, and how to build one, will be posted top level so it has a shot at being picked BA.  If you don't want it summarized, it's basically all there in the collection of articles you already posted.  In addition to that I found these USPatents:

Nihon Trim USPatents related to electrolyic water:
6475371,6623615, 5938915

Hoshizaki USPatents related to electrolyic water:
7713403, 6592727, 6096177, 5728274

Homeopathy has been part of medicine for hundreds of years, and its still bullpoop.
Two points:

1) If you ask many medical practitioners, they would deny that homeopathy is part of medical practice.

I have my own opinions on homeopathy which are not germane here but homeopathy's biggest problem, in my humble opinion, is lack of scientific, peer reviewed studies. In other words, no empiric proof.

But, to dismiss any claim out of hand, without proof is foolish. After all, everyone once knew that the world is flat.

2) My post did not offer an opinion based on a supposed longevity of the existence of a modality. I offered the scientific studies upon which to base your opinion.

Remember the difference between an honest and a dishonest skeptic. An honest skeptic says, "I am uncertain. Show me the evidence" A dishonest skeptic says, "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

g-one waterone5 years ago

There is nothing to say against homeopathy. It may help (even if it mostly appears in context with "placebo effect" and you have to believe in homeopathy ... how ever).
But -- sorry for saying that -- paying hundreds of $ for a machine that produces ionized water keeps only one thing healthy: the bank account of the producer/trader. Since each water on earth is ionized (as iceng explained) those machines are not worth it to pay a cent.
I grant that Wikipedia is far from an authoritative source.

The right way to pursue this, if one is going to pursue it, is to do one's own literature search and evaluate ALL the studies, rather than accepting anyone's preselected list... and limit yourself to studies which have been peer-reviewed by qualified professionals. I'm willing to assume that the folks running the studies may be attempting to do an honest evaluation, but there are a lot of ways to fool _yourself_ with sloppy controls or bad statistics, which is why peer review is not optional.

Being "part of the medical practice" is not necessarily a statement of effectiveness. Placebos are part of the medical practice, as are some other things in the "we don't think it's likely to help, but it won't hurt" category.

Injecting ions of other things into water -- dissolving them in watter -- can be helpful or harmful depending on what they are and in what quantities.

Separating water into ions which are then returned to the water... the only useful application I can think of for that is ozone disinfection. And that counts on the fact that the ozone will quickly oxidize something rather than remaining in the water in that form.

I'm willing to be proven wrong. But at the moment, my level of interest isn't high enough to investigate further, since I don't intend to use the stuff myself. If you really think it'll do something useful, be my guest; I'll wait for the doctors I know to recommend it.

One last thought: If you presume the stuff has any effect at all on the body, you have to ask what the safe maximum dosage is. NOTHING comes without risk of overdose, and that includes ordinary water -- and not just by drowning; drink too much water and you'll throw your electrolyte balance off. If this stuff is doing something different than water, its LD50 is undoubtedly also going to be different than water.

waterone5 years ago
themama,

The health benefits of (some) alkaline waters is documented. I have offered orksecurity a 100+ page PDF document with studies on the subject. My email is included in my reply to his post. Ask me if you would like the document, too.

I am assuming that you would like an ionizer for the health benefits which are primarily preventative. I understand price considerations, but must ask you how much of your health are you willing to compromise to save some money?

Let me tell you my experience. I knew nothing about the subject until the company I represented decided to introduce an ionizer of their own. I researched ionizers for 6+ months only to discover that 1) there are a lot of ionizers out there; 2) there are many price ranges; 3) nearly all of them (including my company) compared themselves to only one ionizer; 4) they offered much disinformation and outright lies to make themselves (including my company) appear superior to this one ionizer 5) The one they all ( including my company) compared themselves to turned out to be the best machine and the best value.

I ended up paying $2200 more than I could have gotten my company's machine for to get the one they all compared to because it proved to be the best value and the best machine.

BTW, things went very badly for me during that time and I ended up losing most everything I had. In spite of that, I saved for a half a year to put together a down payment of a few hundred dollars for that best machine. It took me that long, but all information I had gathered pointed to the conclusion that for the long term that machine was the only one that was worth giving my hard earned dollars for.

Think about it this way. When looking for a surgeon, do you look for the cheapest or the one that can save your life? The same considerations apply to purchasing something that will help you remain healthy.

Seek honestly, find the best, and then figure out how to get it. you will be better off.

waterone
iceng5 years ago
Perhaps absolutely clean water ( No dissolved salts ) which is not conductive.
This could have ions in the water.
But no water on earth except quirky science lab tanks have pure water.

What I am saying, all water you will ever come in contact with already has
some dissolved materials in it and is conductive to electricity.

It is a fact of electrical physics that any ionic charge potential in a conductive
Newtonian fluid will neutralize itself in rapid order and cannot be maintained
as an electrical charge.
This leaves you with only the words of the water softener consortium
" Ionized water " meaning dissolved chemicals in water........................

A

lemonie5 years ago

What concentration of (which) ions do you need?

L
Another way to ask this question would be to provide a link to one or more examples one of these machines, and then ask questions like:

What does this machine do?  How can I build one like it?

This demand for "ionized  water" is a new one to me.  Without more specific information, I am guessing the machine you seek is a form of  quackery, as described in these articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_ionizer
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html
g-one5 years ago

What is this good for?

You can ionize water by simply adding of some kind of salt, acid or alkali. These let water react to hydronium and hydroxyde ions.

2 H2O <-> H3O+   +   OH-