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Electrical wiring and charging system help?

im working on a electrical upgrade for a power wheel.  Im hoping someone can take a look at it and tell me if it looks ok, or if they see a problem with it. The mod keeps the 12V 12Ah system, but adds an additional 6V 1200Ah SLA Battery wired through a realy to allow a 18V boost when the Switch is triggered momentarily.  Ive also attempted to add the following features:
-6V Battery meter for (NOS) Battery
-12V Battery Meter
-2 Remote fired Nerf Guns
-2 Small front speakers with a 3.5mm jack and a usb portfor an MP3 Player
-2 working switch activated headlights
-2 working switch activated fog lights
-2 working brake lights
-18V nos Button for a momentary boost

I have it drawn to use a 12V charger and a 6V charger, because the batteries will obviousely drain at different rates.  I only have a basic knowledge of how relays work.  My biggest concern is the chargers.  Will they charge the Vehicle the way they are, or do I need to add another relay so that when a charge is detected i t disconnects the "ignition".  Also if I have all of the voltages correct.  the regulator breakdowns are on the right along with the relay info.  Thank you for any help you can provide.

EDIT:
Added another drawing for some updated ideas.

3/11/13:
I know that the DPDT coils are only getting 6V.  ignore the DPDT part number and specs.  i was able to find 6V DPDT relays.
-Also added three supporting photos, charging, run mode, accessory mode.  (Black lines have no connection in supporting pics, except main ground, which is also black)

- Had to redraw, the DPDT's I found could only handle 15A per contact, and im pretty sure the motors alone draw around 18A.  So back to lots of SPDT's

3/12/12:
Heres a schematic for the main system stopping at the terminal board.  im not worried about the lights and accessories, those i know how to wire,  Please let me know if this will work.  I apologize in advance, im not very good at drawing schematics, thats why i stick to drawing the physical layout.

Picture of Electrical wiring and charging system help?
3-11-13 spdt relays B ignition Run.bmp
3-11-13 spdt relays B.bmp
3-11-13 spdt relays B charging.bmp
3-11-13 spdt relays B ignition accessory.bmp
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iceng4 years ago
Your wiring diagram looks correct.

As long as the chargers are isolated not sharing an common connection
it should work as you intend.

A
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
what about now, i added a prtoection circuit so that the ignition will be severed when a charge is detected. Also, decided to go with a 6V parallel charging system so i would be able to use a schumacher 600A charger to do everything. i also re drew the relays so I could see them together, because ill be mounting them that way.
iceng supramp4 years ago
How are the parallel +++ and --- connections disconnected (ie removed) when using the batteries?

A
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
what you mean by disconnected. I was wondering about this. does the fact that the positives are run in parallel cause an issue with the 12V lead that runs to the first connector?
supramp (author)  supramp4 years ago
is their any reason why i couldn't use speaker connectors, like the one's below as a charging port. its rated at 30A, 250V and can handle 12 AWG wire. plus it looks cool, it twist locks so that it stays in and cant be put in the wrong way.
NL2FC.jpgnl2mp.jpg
iceng supramp4 years ago
no
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
So I would have to rig it so that when the charger is plugged in and producing a charge, the connection between the batteries (series connections-blue) are disconnected, and when theirs no charge, the parallel connections are severed (red)? and "no" means that they are a feasable option? thats awesome. they look cool.
iceng supramp4 years ago
All correct.

Tell me what you know of the difference and advantages between
solid or stranded wire ?

A
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
Solid allows more current with less dissapation?, But stranded allows more flexibility? Here we go again, round three Ding! All large lines are 12 AWG and small lines are 16 or 18 AWG. I was intending on using Stranded Wire. as for your question, im going to look it up now. at one point I knew this answer.
supramp (author)  supramp4 years ago
also, the runs for this are only about a 6-8' loop, could i go with a 14 gauge wire for main power. it only has to go from batteries to rlays, to original connector. the original wiring harness is being used and its rated for 12V 12A
iceng supramp4 years ago
You will have to decide.
At one time you mentioned a schumacher 600A charger.
  • 14 gauge wire is good for  6 amperes.
  • 12 gauge wire is good for 10 amperes.
  • 10 gauge wire is good for 14 amperes.
  •   8 gauge wire is good for 24 amperes.
  •   4 gauge wire is good for 60 amperes.
  •  
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
the charger wire I will run 12 AWG Stranded. but i'm thinking the rest will be 14 AWG or smaller. I cant find a definitive answer to this. I have read that 12 AWG is only good up to 9.3A, but I've also read 14 AWG is good up until 15A. totally contradictory. I only want to run 14 AWG wire because I can't find a 12-pos plug & socket that will fit 12 AWG wire. Well i found one, but its expensive and the terminals are backordered. I'm up for suggestions, but i really want a plug so i can disconnect the batteries from the harness and charge plug quickly.
iceng supramp4 years ago
You are shorting ( DANGER BAD ) the 6v batteries all the time !!!
See the differences between
  • SHORT
  • PARALLEL
  • SERIES

You could use 4 of your relays to avoid this.

A
3g-SHORT.JPG3g PARALLEL.JPG3g-SERIES.JPG
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
is this the problem area
FSD9JJZHDYZB7YT.LARGE.jpg
iceng4 years ago
Looks OK !

Confirming the battery fuses are a very good idea.
Some times a relay may stick ( not switch ) and then a battery short
would melt the wiring except for the fuse :)
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
thank you so much. now i just have to build it. as always I have learned much while drawing this, and i know i can be a pretty thick headed student. thanks for the help. BA as always
iceng4 years ago
Thanks very much for BA.

In a commercial product where copper $$ there will be maxi gauge use.

The power wheel is a real device that does not run at full current all the time.
The wire heat gets to cool off and experience has taught the manufacturer
what little works..

That is the other side of engineering ( pays the salaries ) 14AWG :-)

supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
thats a great point, if i change anything i will convert to 12 AWG where i can, im looking into some DPDT relays to save space and money, im having a hard time undersanding them. i mean i see the diagrahm and its easy enough to read, but my brain doesnt like it. when i look at the pins, it sayin the pins closer to the coil or
normally connected until current is applied to the coil, but its an electro magnet. should the pins closer to the coil only be connected when the coil is under a load. maybe the diagrahm isnt a representation of the componants inside. heres the relay diagrahm
relay dpdt.bmp
iceng supramp4 years ago
Top relay is a Triple pole -Double throw ( TPDT ) or DTTP...

The bottom relay is Double pole Double throw DTDP.

Both coils must be 6VDC and are activated by the charger 6V..

The Protection diode absorbs the high volt kick back from both coils.

A

3b.jpg
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
is their something wrong with the way I have it, besides my relays not being 6V.
supramp (author)  supramp4 years ago
I also dont see where the 12V power lead coms from, the one you have labeled 12V is coming off of the Negative?
iceng supramp4 years ago
You put the batteries in SERIES to get your running voltages.

You put the batteries in PARALLEL to charge them at 6 Volts.

****  When you are charging THERE IS NO 12 Volts !!!!!!!

A
3g-SERIES.JPG3g PARALLEL.JPG
iceng iceng4 years ago
If  I were doing this  I would use a Cinch Connector to change from
Charge to Run .... instead of relays.

One receptacle and two plugs will save you a 6V relay nightmare.

Please get your head around this concept slowly.

A
Cinch-connect.jpg
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
I tried looking up "Cinch Connector" to see what your talking about but i keep getting the brand"Cinch" and the connectors they sell, is their another name for those. and "please get your head around this concept slowly", what's that about?. I'm trying to learn, doing non stop research, its just a little difficult at times.
iceng supramp4 years ago
Cinch Jones 12 pin connector
Iv been drawing all day to make a receptacle and plug
that one way is series run and
the 180° rotation sets up a charge
using only one plug for both !!!

After you cut off the two round plugs to make it a reversible ten pin plug.
Sorry, eBay may be your only source.
I'm so damm old the co died in my lifetime...

A
3g-cinch3.JPGCinch12connect.jpg
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
if i understand what your saying, and thats only if... these are staight 12 pin receptacles and plugs. this what just be a unplug the charge plug, and plug in the run plug type idea. which is ok, but the idea for my design was to keep the system automated, so that my wife could just plug in the charger, and not have to risk plugging in the wrong plugs.
iceng supramp4 years ago
Sure,  I provide options, you must resolve which to use.

If you use two plugs the charger plug could incorporate the 6 volt charger cable.
And the run plug would replace the charger like a dust cover.

This process would work much like fueling your wife's car...
iceng iceng4 years ago
There are so many circuits can you point to which one is on youradar ?


Two plug version additional  thoughts :
  • using a charger plug and dust plug
  • will only need a 6 or 8 pin plugs
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
sorry, i was cleaning out my library, it should be good now. i have only loaded the new one's
supramp (author)  supramp4 years ago
ok well, i decided to draw a schematic to check for flaws, i found a couple, like the battery pos/neg being backwards, the wrong feed into the relay, no connection to the first battery neg, etc, etc. i think i may have it now. take a look...
supramp (author)  supramp4 years ago
iceng, how does it look now buddy ol pal
The circuit looks VASTLY clearer than before. And very neatly drawn I can see at a glance that the design looks pretty well OK, but wire gauges need investigating where the switching of your currents happens.
supramp (author)  steveastrouk4 years ago
what do you mean? i was thinking 12 or 14 gauge
The circuit doesn't show the rating of wires.
supramp (author)  steveastrouk4 years ago
oops, sorry they will all probably be 12 AWG, i was hoping to use 14, like the main wiring harness was, but iceng suggested against it
iceng4 years ago
Just fixed your three 6V coils parallel
and the ground black wire.

OK the run series of the batteries
OK the charge parallel of the batteries.

After you fix that and anything else you see
I can look some more.

A
LARGE.jpg
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
alright Newer design, posted up top as well. its relay hell, but i think i finally fixed the problem areas
3-11-13 spdt relays B.bmp
iceng4 years ago
Somehow we made a connection and you keep trying so hard.

I was never an easy teacher for my children.
My dear wife moderates my Slavic tendencies.
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
I have a newer design, but its saved on a different computer, i load it tomorrow, but can you tell specifically, where i went wrong in the last design up top. I found some relays that would work on 6 volts, so the design should work. switching from parallel to series, but its the ground im concerned about.
iceng4 years ago
OK  were cool.
supramp (author)  iceng4 years ago
back to what I was saying heres an example of why im losing my hair over this wire/ amps question. This is not me saying your wrong, this is me trying to find out why I cant understand why the internet is full of contradictory data, and what to go by.
on this website : http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/WireCapacityChart.htm

he has this table

Gauge 110V 12V
22 5A 5A
20 7.5A 8A
18 10A 10A
16 13A 20A
14 17A 40A
12 23A 60A
10 33A 100A
8 46A 150A

also here: http://www.windsun.com/Hardware/Wire_Table.htm

he claims 14 Gauge can handle up to 15A for 6'.

and another: http://www.offroaders.com/tech/12-volt-wire-gauge-amps.htm

claims 14 gauge for 12V automotive (Similar) can carry 30A for 5'
iceng supramp4 years ago
You should only follow my simple gauge table based on ability to pass the current without generating heat, I did all my life.
Boy, are you hard to convince.

Of course it is possible to pass much more current in any gauge.

BUT that will cause the wire to get  hot .........maybe melt and burn the
insulation on both the positive and negative wires,
causing a short circuit deconstruction.

And passing even more current gets the copper hot enough to melt
like a fuse ( That is the Fusing Current ) in the table.
Braking the wire and lighting an insulation fire under your bottom !!

A
supramp (author)  supramp4 years ago
regardless, i just looked, and the original harness is running 14 AWG Wire so i should be ok, im not modifying the motors. does the array of relay look right, so that i dont have another short?