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How would i compress hydrogen gas into a propane-type bottle?

im trying to store hydrogen into these propane bottles so i can use that instead of propane to fuel my foundry furnace.

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 You can't store hydrogen in propane bottles. Hydrogen is extremely dangerous. However, there is a lot of interest in hydrogen in powering automobiles, so storing hydrogen has been studied. Read the "Storage" section of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Production.2C_storage.2C_infrastructure for ideas.

This is what the article has to say about safety: "Hydrogen has the widest explosive/ignition mix range with air of all the gases except acetylene. That means that whatever the mix proportion between air and hydrogen, a hydrogen leak will lead to an explosion, not a mere flame. This makes the use of hydrogen particularly dangerous in closed areas (tunnels, parkings)..[47] Some differences with common fuels include the fact that pure hydrogen-oxygen flames burn in the ultraviolet color range and are nearly invisible to the naked eye, thus it requires a flame detector to detect if a hydrogen leak is burning. Hydrogen is odorless and leaks cannot be detected by smell."

Ok, found a report on Hydrogen, and its myths...

You should read this report, it demistifies the fears of hydrogen. For me, the issue is to find a compressor to compress hydrogen, this is now the challenge.

The report is from Rocky Mountain Institute.

http://hydrogenhouseproject.org/hydrogen-myths.html

From the previous link:

"Myth #7 - we lack a safe and affortable way to store hydrogen in cars.

This problem was solved several years ago. Such firms as Quantum (partly own by GM) and Dynatek now sell filament-wound carbon-fiber tank lined with an aluminized polyester bladder instead of the TRADITIONAL SOLID METAL LINER."

Traditional... This means hydrogen is being compressed in metal tanks...

Also, if you look at this hydrogen house project (link above), you will find the guy has a massive amount of steel tanks to store his hydrogen reserves...

emh_0071 month ago

ok, this is getting more interesting... Materials to store hydrogen:

www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=16375039

They won't sell to anyone that does not have a business license or has a business designed for chemical storage. Not all MH will store hydrogen. I was getting MH from NIMH batteries, I designed a process to safely remove the hydrogen by submersing the MH in water then boiling the sludge. The hydrogen is released when you reach high temps, then you keep cooking it until the MH dries. It is then safe to handle. If you expose dry NIMH powder straight from a battery, as soon as it loses the moister it bursts into flames. Get it wet as soon as you take it out of the battery. I was getting 300 grams from Prius batteries using a metal saw to cut into the battery, separating the plates, and scraping off the MH. Just have to keep the powder wet or.....spark, poof, burn.....

Thank you for the insight. I want to collect metal hydride from NIMH batteries as you suggested to put in Cylinder to store Hydrogen gas. but why I cant use the extracted metal hydride as it is? Can you please guide me and explain why I should add water to it and then dry it? Will it not react with water and become obsolete? Many thanks John

emh_00728 days ago

More digging on this topic...

I was watching a car tv show, and they talked about the Toyota mirai which runs on hydrogen using a fuel cell... I looked at their system and they do not appear to use hydrides, they are using a HIGH PRESSURE composite tank!!

Also, I remembered this project in Island where they have hydrogen stations performing electrolysis, and running different car brands running on hydrogen.

http://www.itm-power.com/project/island-hydrogen

Make your own conclusions.

emh_0071 month ago

Here is a book I found, talking about magnets and their hydrogen absorbtion phenomena.

"Intelligent Application in Material World Select Papers from IPMM-2001"

This is for educational purpose only.

emh_0071 month ago

I have been looking at this for a little while now, and digging into metal hydrides.

I read the rare earth magnets use metal hydride, and I was wodnering if they could be used to store hydrogen...

Here is what I found:

www.intemag.com/media/HydrogenEmbrittlementandH2coating.pdf

emh_0071 month ago

Interesting topic...

I was thinking of running an engine with pure hydrogen, not hho. HHO does not seem sufficiently potent to run the engine.

The issue is how to store the hydrogen, or to put it in the bottle...

I have also seen Bob Lazar running his Corvette on Hydrogen, however he uses metal hydrites to store the hydrogen into some tanks, which seems to be heated when the hydrogen needs to be used.

Here is a good link on hydrogen, demystifying it.

www.merlin.unsw.edu.au/energy/hydrogen_faq/

Perhaps you need to use a hydrogen generator "on demand", which for instance use aluminium, KOH, and water (or other types of alloys and water). This will produce a good amount of hydrogen which can be used instantly. Some are running engines with this technique (hydrolysis).

lane56253 years ago
You cannot, I repeat cannot compress hydrogen into a propane tank, period, end of story. 1) hydrogen and oxygen explode so you would need to evacuate ALL oxygen from the cylinder. If you're using HHO forget that, it has it's own oxygen in the mixture. 2) The amount of space necessary to compress hydrogen far exceeds the capacity of a propane cylinder. One gram of hydrogen takes up as much physical space as 11 liters of oxygen. 3) Did I mention it will explode?

Now, do some research into storing your hydrogen in a metal hydride state. There are three ways to store hydrogen, 1) freeze it at -238 degrees Celsius, 2) compress it at 20,000 PSI and lastly 3) absorb the hydrogen into a metal hydride.

You can take a cylinder the size of a 12 gram co2 cartridge, fill it 80% of the way with a metal hydride and it will hold 12 liters of hydrogen. It still needs to be compressed, but at 112 psi, not 20,000

Now you're asking yourself, where do I find metal hydride. Well the easiest place is inside NIMH rechargeable batteries. The negative terminal of a NIMH battery in most cases contains LaNi5 which is a good metal hydride for storing hydrogen.

The outside case of a NIMH battery (in all cases is the size of a AA battery) and made of stainless steel. It can be cut open using a good pair of wire snips. Make a small snip in the metal and peal it like an apple in a circular fashion. This will remove the outside casing. Unroll the two metal plates. The inside plate is the positive side (contains NOOHI and not very good for hydrogen storage) and the outside plate is the negative side, that's the one you want. Scrape the metal hydride from the nickle plate and you have LaNi5. Collect enough of it and you can fill a small cylinder.

Be careful of the white film that separates the two plates, this is potassium hydroxide and works like an acid. Use gloves and wash your hands with water when you're done.

Suppose I can provide a vacuumed propane cylinder, can you explain to me why I can not just keep pumping the hydrogen gas into the cylinder until it reaches the pressure I want?

Storage of hydrogen in bottles is dangerous. However storage of H2 in solid array is stable and safe. I however doubt you have the means to do so. Metal hydride storage of hydrogen is very safe and stable. Even more safe than storage of petrol in your vehicle tank. There is a lot of sensationalism over hydrogen storage because of one zeplin. This isn't then. Solid State storage of hydrogen is very safe. Do not attempt liquid or compressed gas storage, it is just asking for trouble.

To store hydrogen into a cylinder tank:

1. Hydrogen must be remove from all oxygen making hydrogen an inert gas form.
2. Hydrogen must be liquefied at temperature of 20.28 K (−423.17 °F/−252.87°C) and maintained at this temperature so it does not turn into gas form by means of nitrogen.
3. Hydrogen; maintenance of liquid state and the devices in order to do this requires an industrial MAZMAT type licensing and certification. This can only be acquired if undersigned by corporate entity with engineering degree with over-sight. Liquid hydrogen requires cryogenic storage technology such as special thermally insulated containers and requires special handling common to all cryogenic fuels. Liquid hydrogen is in all purposes considered an explosive in liquid form or gas form and certifications are not for public use.
4. Hydrogen; if you do not storage H2 in liquid form, or gas form and have proper ventilation is still considered illegal for vehicular combustion volume metric efficiency usage in public highway motor applications, but currently is not enforced. As a private citizen on a public highway using water-hydrogen-cell for hydrogen+oxygen mix usage is considered an explosive do to oxygen in gas line with H2/Hydrogen. If hydrogen is introduced into combustion chamber without oxygen mixture then it is inert until contact with oxygen, therefore none explosive till that O2/Oxygen contact point of gas mixture. If hydrogen is introduced in combustion cylinder chamber as only hydrogen then it is considered legal if done by qualified professional certified by DOT/Department of Motor Vehicles, but again these laws are not in effect. Thus, do not become a poster child/adult as an example for the enforcement of these law awaiting to take effect. Therefore, do not ruin this new H2 application to further your fuel economy, please be careful and be certain hydrogen will not have any areas to pocket in engine compartment awaiting an ignition point explosive.
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Please Be Careful, and Be safe. Think of others in your science project.

hydrogen-bomb-explosion.jpeg

can i storage on a big hard balloon and connect to a little stove heater just for a evening cooking ? last time i make hydrogen (electrolysis) i use a regular balloon for storage and i connect a firefighters like hose (smaller scale of course) and i fire up like a torch for like one minute and was fun until balloon was empty :). i guess i can do same with bigger maybe cylindrical balloon (human size could be) and cook something. sorry my bad english

This I have personally seen done. Yes, but don't expect that balloon to last more than a day.

could you clarify what you mean by "return to gas form by means of nitrogen"?

Hydrogen is NOT an inert gas, regardless of form.

You do NOT need an engineering degree to handle liquified gases, including hydrogen. (The key mistake here is "engineering degree")

Do you just make this up or are you paraphrasing (badly) some other source?

CaveD10 months ago

http://hydrogenhouseproject.org/the-first-consumer-hydrogen-house.html

It is wise not to say "can't" in our evolving science, my friends. From the first fuel cell design in 1801 (that's 214 years ago), much of this has been considered, designed, and tested. The link above is current, and the link below shows fuel cell history.

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/history

MarkC171 year ago

Ahh the danger of speaking in absolutes. Here is a fellow doing it in a residential setting on a large scale - albeit at low pressure/high volume. Really gets the imagination going....

http://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-product-design/is-a-hydrogen-powered-house-really-green.html

iljpj11 year ago

Could you store it in a a propane tank for a grill, or maybe a refrigerant tank?

lemonie6 years ago
Propane is probably cheaper, definitely safer, and you'd get more of it in a bottle. Don't try it.

L