ANSWERS : Technology

Hello everyone i am kinda knew and would like to know what is going on with my setup. i got a pair of dual 18" speakers, each box has 4 tweeters and 1 horn and 2 18" speakers. when i first got these speakers none of the tweeters worked. i changed them and they popped again. These speakers are being pushed by an ep-4000 amp and they are bridged. Please help me with my problem. i don't want to change the tweeters and horn again and for them to pop. i am open to any suggestion. the speakers sounded beautifully until they all left one by one lol. Am i connecting something wrong? should i connect something to them? please help meeeee......................UPDATE:>>>>>.thanks to everyone for the responses....i believe that these speakers don't have a crossover in them..... but i put filters on each tweeter hoping that would solve my problem but that's when i was wrong and found out the hard way...........those are the speakers at the bottom........if i need a crossover what kind do i need???? what type of tweeters and horns do i need??? Filters??? capacitors??...what you guys recommend?? i want this to last a long time without blowing......Please guide me as i am a noob in this field...... thanks again


*********************************************UPDATE 7-14-11************************************
so ive been messing around for a while and i havent had time to post anything up but i finally manged to make some time......here is what i have done.....i went out and got myself two crossover for the tweeters on the top......i believe they were some eminence cross over rated at 3.5k and i got myself some selenium tweeters (4 to be exact) 2 on each box.........so the selenium tweeters are connected to the crossover (ONLY THE SELENIUM TWEETERS ARE CONNECTED.....SOUNDS REALLY LOUD WITH ONLY TWO SO OTHER TWEETERS AND HORN ARE DISCONNECTED) and the crossover is receiving the power from the same connection as the sub...but the sub woofers are just connected straight to the amp...........i was in a party and they were pumping beautifully :-) for a good 2 hrs.....then the fuse just blew away.....i dont know if it was because of the frequencies going in them from my drops.......i didnt even wanna use a mic so i wont blow them and they still did........as of now i purchased the frequency controller i forgot the name.....but i can adjust the volume of the tweeters through there.....only thing is ive noticed that even while i have the volume on zero for the tweeters i still see the fuses lighting up like Christmas lights so im afraid their going to pop again.........if they do i was wondering if i can use those other fuse(GOLD FUSE) which is rated at 80amp a way higher rating power then those fuse that come with the crossover(DOUBLE SILVER FUSES CAME WITH THE EMINENCE CROSSOVER)......

Comments

[nicelly]

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[Glenn Burrow]

First, make sure your speakers are all rated at MORE than the amp. The amp should only be 80% of the rated wattage of the speakers. Also, make sure the ohms match up, too little resistance makes them carry too much and they can blow. Another thought is the frequency range. Low frequencies are killer to anything but subs. Hence speakers in people's cars blow so often - they love a lot more bass than those little 6 inchers can handle. Filters are very helpful here.
And make sure the ranges are run separately. If its all coming from the same place, you end up with a lot of "noise" (improper frequencies that sound like crap in the speaker not rated for it). It is a bit unclear - are they running separately or together?

[dog digger]

With the power amps, it's the other way around. Always have the power amp more powerful than the speakers. In most power amps, unless they are something like lab gruppen convertible power amps, they will have DC power rails. Infact, all amps I know of have DC power supply rails(except for the Labs that I was talking about before). If the power amp clips, which can be very easy with cheap amps eg beringers, it will send DC to the speakers. If a sound like a bass drum causes the speaker to go above the RMS and the amp is only 80% of the speaker rating, the amp will clip therefore sending DC to the speakers. When I look at buying amps, I go, if I can, up to the peak (or at least PROGRAM) wattage for the power amp's RMS. This might not apply for the cheaper speakers but it certainly applies to decent speakers E.g EV, RCF etc. If I had cheaper speakers, I would look at getting a power amp with the program wattage of the speakers

[davidprosser]

Just to say, it's not from sending DC to the speakers, it's just that the average power being delivered to them (area under the line if you look at the waveform) is higher, so they're getting more energy over time, and will heat up from the excessive energy. Then the voice coil can melt things and you've just made yourself a big magnet.

Just thought to clarify.

Using a bigger amp is better, so long as you don't just push it too hard or you're asking too much of it! I speak from accidental experience haha!

[dog digger]

If you are running two of those boxes, BRING the amp out of bridge!!! the speakers should be 4 ohms each and if they are in parallel, that will bring them down to two ohms which NO AMP will handle in bridge. Never use 2 ohms anyway! Have the inputs set to parallel if a stereo source is unavailable. If a stereo source is available, eg the TV next to the speakers, use the amp in stereo. That amp is probably a little too powerful for those speakers but I assume that you don't have them running that loud for them to blow

[Quercus austrina]

Dude,

Your fuse shouldn't light up at all. It sounds like you have a problem with DC in your line causing your fuse to heat up. This could be why the original tweeters blew in the first place. Where in the line are the fuses located, before or after the x-overs?

Qa

[dman192]

well they werent fuses they like bulbs i think.....and i replaced them with that gold fuse you see.....those bulbs are located in a Eminence crossover.......like i said the main cable is connected to the big subwoofers and from the subwoofers its connected to the cross over then to the L pad and from L pad to tweeters........

[nattyclem]

can i say, and I am probably wrong, but if the wattage of the amp going into the speakers is higher than the wattage on the back of the speakers their going to blow. I know this is probably wrong and you have probably already tried it but it might be right. :-)

[kiranininstructables]

I think ur amp is of high gain so that ur speakers cant tolerate the power try switching to some low power amps.

[pipo4ka]

Wow! Thanks

[Diabloscope]

used to have something similar in design with two cabinets , mids tweets on both cabinets were on an X-over network @ +3db using a pm860 soundcraftsman 600 watt amp, and for the bass i had four EV 15"s running off two soundcraftsman 1200 watt amps . , yes i've replaced peizo bullet tweeters on those non stop all night parties , but was mostly due to either substuting and mismatching one of the amps for a cheaper one and running underpowered and distorting like crazy , blowing my carvin 8"s a few times , too much watts wont kill your speakers Distortion and bad equip will ..... try running separate amps with less distortion .. Good Luck !

[andybuda]

i know they look cheep and they r
all recycled parts
bi amped with paradigm ps 1000 amp for subs in main upright tubes these things wubble
10" subs
8" main
2 x 4" mid
soft dome tweets ( can`t take sharp noises, ears hurt )
look like sh*t, sound like tubular bells.

[andybuda]

ahh there cheep speakers that are made to look good with v cheep components 4 ohm drivers wired in parallel
to much space between highs and lows
trust me there cheep
my first dj set up was 4 ohm car sub with horn tweeter added the thing sounded better in the other room and needed a sock in the horn tweeter to stop my ears from bleeding

[knex gun and grenade maker]

your amp is to high you nees a ep-3000 amp.

[jeff-o]

It could be the amplifier, feeding excessive DC into the speakers. See if you can measure the DC voltage across the terminals.

[The nerdling]

mabey toomuch voltage

[jj.inc]

One other thing, make sure your tweeter/horn enclosure is separated from your tweeters. The pressure from two 18" woofers could easily blow those little thins to shreds.

[jj.inc]

I am not a great professional or anything but from what I can tell I would recommend you get some crossovers like these for the tweeters:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_127BB800A2/Bass-Blockers-800-Hz-cut-off.html?tp=1088
and these for the horn:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_127BB300A2/Bass-Blockers-300-Hz-cut-off.html?tp=1088
They used to have some good actual crossovers at crutchfield but now all they have are these bass blockers.
I may recommend a separate amp for the tweeters and horn maybe, I didn't catch any power specifications but you may be over-powering them.

[likocorp]

Could you post some more pics. please

[Tom1795xx]

You amp wattage needs to match your speakers wattage and ohms need to match also. Make sure you are wired up properly, positive to positve, negative to negative. Or you can underpower the speakers a little like I have a stereo in my room 150W but i power it with 125W. If none of this works PM me where your stereo is, how old it is, and the specs of your amp and speakers.

[Quercus austrina]

1. Overpowering the drivers, both tweeters and mids. The EP4000 is rated at 4000 W bridged (suspect because at 120V line power, you'll need 34 amps minimum and at 220V, you'll need 18.5 amps minimum). These days, power ratings on most drivers is just a wish.
2. Crossover not working correctly or completely absent.
3. Impedance match for tweeters and mids is wrong for crossover. Lower impedance can let more bass through destroying the drivers.

Other than these thoughts, I can't think of anything else until actually looking at the speakers.

Qa

[dman192]

thanks for the reply take a look at the pic let me know if u need to see more

[Quercus austrina]

Okay, these are lower end DJ/PA speakers. The mids/tweets are each individually rated about 50 - 75 watts (peak), actual power handling (continuous) is less regardless of what the manufacturer says (years of experience talking here).

When you open up the speaker and look inside, you should see a crossover that looks something like this. Dont' worry if it isn't exactly the same. When you look at it closely, do any of the components look burned? Are the capacitors (the black cylinder looking things, might be other colors) all nice and smooth with no bulges at the ends or any leaking areas? While you are looking at them, are the voltage ratings 100V or more? And, is the whole circuit big? Physical size helps determine how much power it can handle, so if it is small - about half a hand length - it is most likely low powered, probably around 75 - 200 watts.

Also, the 2 outer tweeters and the horn mid look like they are piezo based drivers. They cannot handle large amounts of power reliably. They should be upgraded to something a bit more professional. I've seen the middle tweeters before, but I don't remember the specifics about them.

Qa

[dman192]

ok i will change those tweeters....just thought those were good since it came with those.....i have checked the inside and there is no crossover in this box...just a whole bunch of wiring from speaker to speaker and then to tweeters..........im guessing i need a crossover???? what should i get??? as for the tweeters and horns i was thinking about getting these what do you think??? i would like to go with the first because they look very powerful.....as for the horns i dont know what to get... plz help thank you very much........

[jbrand-1]

It would be helpful if you could snap a few photos of the inside so that we can all take a look.

[Quercus austrina]

Just wires, no capacitors on the tweeters similar to the one shown on the Titanium Super Bullet Tweeter above?

If so, you have found your real problem. Without some sort of crossover (the cap shown above will only let certain frequencies through to the tweeter - blocking the bass from it), the tweeters are getting the bass pushed through them which they weren't designed to handle. That is why they fried.

Do you have links to the tweeters so I can look at the specs?

Actually, once you get the crossover or "bass blocking capacitor(s)" sorted out, the original tweeters and mid horn might survive after replacement. Most power is used in the bass range anyway, so if you get some high powered replacements (200W?), they should last a lot longer.

BTW, are these for home use or are they for DJ/PA use?

Qa

[dman192]

the tweeters did have some sort of capacitor on them but idk if that really worked because they still fried....these are the links from the tweeters...http://www.a2zcarstereo.com/productDetailsByName.php?name=Pyramid+TW46 http://www.a2zcarstereo.com/productDetailsByName.php?name=Pyle+Pro+PH25 http://www.a2zcarstereo.com/productDetailsByName.php?name=Pyle+Pro+PH44 ......so what kind of crossover you recommend if i need it or bass blocking capacitor???? and im trying to build this for a dj/pa use but before i do a gig with them i want to make sure they can hold the pressure so for now i use them at home till everything is well built.....

[Quercus austrina]

Ok, for PA/DJ use, the big boys use compression drivers for higher SPL levels and durability. Plus, they have the ability to replace the diaphragm, so you wouldn't need to buy a complete unit in the event of a blowout. To look at some, try Parts-Express.com or MCMElectronics.com for these types.

While you are at Parts Express, check out their Dayton Audio XO2W-2K 2-Way Crossover, 2,000 Hz. It is rated for 300 watts, but you can leave the woofers disconnected (from the crossover - leave them directly connected to the wires like they are now) to help them survive the high power you wish to push through them. As an extra bit of protection, put a 10 uF non-polarized capacitor (100V min.) in line with the positive connection to the mid/tweeter. This will help block any frequencies below 2000 Hz (at 8 ohm impedance). 4 ohm speakers should use 20 uF NP capacitors.

If you wish to keep the choices you have started with, I'd go with the Pyle PH44 for the outside tweeters and the Pyramid TW46 for the center ones.

You'll have to look around the sites to find a mid-range horn to fit the hole in your boxes. Once you do, pick a driver that has a similar SPL rating to the tweeters, along with a healthy wattage rating. Look for crossovers around the 1000 Hz range. For a NP capacitor, 20 uF for 8 ohms and 40 uF for 4 ohms.

All you can do is put them together and see if they survive. Such is the nature of the beast, but at least you will know you've done more than the original builder to make them survive.

Qa

[andybuda]

im inpressed you realy know what your talling about and help people out on these pages. the advice you gave me on the speakers stoped me from putting an extra port and im very happy with the sound with just the 1, i did some research in to the proprer port size for xmas and size of box speaker size and so one and the port is half the size of recomended but im happy with the sound has very good rounded bass at lower lissening levels and thats kind of what i want.. have descovered distortion on a channel on my amp, transistor maybe on its way out. have had this amp fixed by someone elts be for coz it was beyond me. has speaker protection relays that kept kicking in so made testing very hard... any ideas on the distortion side?

[dman192]

Thank you very much i will start my project asap and ill keep you posted thank you very much for the helpful information and i will snap a couple of pics from the inside for you guys....

[orksecurity]

Presumably, you're putting more power through these than they're designed for.

Could be a problem in the crossover, could be a problem in the amp, but more likely you just need to either turn down the volume or get something that's suited to what you're asking it to do.


.... Though frankly, a box that has 4 tweeters sounds like a bad design. Even voice-of-the-theater-style speakers only need ONE tweeter, ONE midrange horn and ONE woofer. More transducers does not necessarily mean better sound; sometimes it just means more problems with phase interference and the like. So I'm inclined to bet that whoever designed these was clueless.

[NachoMahma]

.  +1. More drivers =/= a better speaker.
.  Amplifier clipping is also a likely suspect. Usually caused by over-driving the amp. Smaller wattage drivers (tweeters and mid-ranges) can't handle DC very well. Turn the volume down a bit. Too many drivers and a poorly designed crossover might be giving a very low impedance at certain frequencies, which can cause clipping.

[orksecurity]

Good points.

[aelias36]

+1