Windmill Generator - why won't a small brush-less motor work as a windmill generator?
I bought a small brush-less motor that was designed as a motor for a small RC plane. I tested it by spinning it with a drill. I was surprised to find that the motor did not generate much in the way of voltage. Why not?
It's too bad - many small brush-less motors are so nice. No brushes, ball bearings, and low cost. I would have thought that forcing a brush-less motor to spin would have generated power.
Thanks for any insight.
It's too bad - many small brush-less motors are so nice. No brushes, ball bearings, and low cost. I would have thought that forcing a brush-less motor to spin would have generated power.
Thanks for any insight.
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KV is the number of RPM the motor develops per volt, and conversely indicates the number of RPM you need to spin the motor at to produce a volt.
If you're wanting to use a small BLDC motor as a generator, you'll need to find a way to spin it really fast, or alternatively find a much lower KV motor. Some very large RC motors can be found in the 100-200 KV range, and would be much more appropriate for use as a wind generator. (they're quite a bit larger and more expensive though)
They're going to be much larger, stronger motors though, so you'll probably need to run a bigger prop to get over the cogging. The upside is that a bigger prop will be collecting a lot more energy.
A brushed motor has a rotor inside with a magnet ring on the outside, this allows DC current to be made because of the way the magnets rotate relative to the coil. In a brushed motor, coils are wound and mounted parallel to the rotor, this means that the coil is stimulated whenever passed, in a brushed motor the coil is wrapped like lights on a tree, around the center. This allows a constant flow by pulling energy around and around. It is like pulling a magnet around a table with one underneath. If you move the bottom one left to right and the top one is only allowed to go up and down it will be stimulated a different direction with every pass, if the top magnet is allowed to go left to right then it will fallow the bottom in one long stream.
My guess is that the inverter draws a surge from the batteries at start up. A solar panel would not be able to supply that needed surge.
In terms of the motor / solar panel - you gotta match the solar panel to the DC motor. A 15 watt panel is not gonna start a 1/4 hoarse DC motor. The solar panel will have a sticker on the back that specs. the amount of current. Try running your motor on a variable power supply at that same current. If the motor does not run then it sure won't run on the solar panel either.
Same goes for the fly-wheel. Gotta match the fly wheel output to the load. But again, the fly-wheel is not able to supply the surge the inverter needs.
Hope this helps,
Jim
get some ideas here, easy stuff
making my own out of neodenium magnets, no power needed to spin magnetic motor, but i have to buy 216 1"X1/2"X1" dowel magnets to embed them into acrylic rotors,
if you use the brushless motors you will have to add a lead and this involves separating the armature and adding another post then having a control or trigger, i could use a stepper motor using a small trigger device to keep it going thus allowing power generation with magnets over a coil, kinda like the Bendini Motor circuit, wish me luck cause tomorrow im going to turn the plates down
Post some pictures when you get something working.
Thanks,
Jim
I also tried using the current scale on my voltmeter. Again, on the AC scale, I measured 200mA of current. So, with a dead short across one phase, I can get 200mA.
So the results are, open circuit, one phase produces 250mV @ 0mA. With short circuit, we get 200mA @ 0V.
I think maybe the problem is, the motor is designed to produce torque. The magnets are not that powerful. The coils produce the vast majority of the magnetism. The magnets just get pulled around by the coils. By back driving the motor, the weak magnets don't induce that much power into the coils.
I'm guessing, to make the motor good as a generator, the weak magnets would need to be replaced with very strong magnets. Also, I worry the coils don't have enough windings. Again, the coils are designed to produce magnetism. Instead, the coils need to be designed to accept a rotating magnet field and induce a current.
I'm just guessing on most of these points. What I can tell you is, back driving a brush-less toy motor does not produce much usable power.
That means that the thing can run between 14000 and 49,000 RPM, unloaded. Its not TERRIBLY surprising you can't get more than 0.25 volts off it at 1000RPM.
You really need to read up on motor operation ! A motor is a generator. Its even a generator whilst its being a motor. You DON'T need to change anything, you just need to run it the way it needs to be run.
Steve
My question, after all, "Can one of these little brush-less motors be used as a generator in a windmill application?" The answer appears to be no.
Also, have a look at this:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Your-Own-Miniature-Electric-Hub-Motor/
Now, this guy has done some homework. It's gonna take me some time to digest this.
Thanks,
Jim
Steve
However, what I was shooting for was a brushless motor. I loved the idea that it would last a really long time since no brushes were used. Plus, the brushless motor seem to be better made (mine uses ball bearings).
But sadly, the toy brushless motors made for remote control (RC) stuff are just all wrong. They are small in diameter, have delta windings, and have cogging problem. Just no good for a small windmill application. Note, there are larger brushless motors available for RC stuff. But the price goes way up.
My next idea is going to use a power steering motor. Delphi make an electric power steering system that uses a large brushless motor. The Delphi motor is 3 1/2 inches in diameter and four inches tall. There are millions of these motors out there in junk yards! A bit large for my tastes, but since I already have one I guess I'll make do.
Thanks for the comment,
Jim
You could tap and rectify each coil.
www.instructables.com/id/Make-Your-Own-Miniature-Electric-Hub-Motor
I learned a bunch from reading about his project.
One of the neat ideas from reading his work, a motor is really a transducer. It converts between torque and electricity. The transducer works in both directions too. This is what makes regenerative braking work on hybrids. In other words, the hybrid uses the motor to push the car forward. But, when braking, the motor operates as a generator and converts torque back into electricity that is pumped back into the batteries.
In terms of using a brushless motor as a good generator, the jury is still out. My toy BLDC (brushless DC) motor was not wound well for use as a generator. The windings were wound in a delta pattern using five parallel strands for a total of six turns on each tooth.
I've recently ripped all the windings off my motor. My plan was to reuse the copper to rewind the motor. However, I kinda messed up the strands by pulling them off the stator. So, I've ordered new (multi colored) magnet wire. I'm expecting the new wire any day now.
My plan is to rewind the motor in a star (Wye) pattern using a bunch of turns. I expect to get at least 30+ turns on each tooth. This should make a big difference in the output of the motor / generator. Once rewound I'll back-drive the motor again and see what we get.
Thanks,
Jim
The old windings were wound in a delta pattern using multi-strand bundle of 5 wires with 6 turns on each tooth. So really, there were 30 turns of wire on each tooth.
The new windings were wound as a star, or wye, pattern using 25 turns on each tooth.
The old winds produced 0.25 volts rms across one phase, open circuit. The new windings produced 2.0 volts rms, open circuit. Both results were achieved using a drill motor to spin the motor at 3600 rpm.
So, going from 6 turns delta to 25 turns wye gave an eight fold increase in voltage, at the same rpm.
With more practice, I think I could get all 30 turns back onto each tooth. That might boost the voltage to maybe 2.5 volts rms.
So finally, to answer my own question, the reason small brushless motors are poor windmill generators is because they are too small. Even rewinding the motor into a wye pattern and using the maximum number of turns the motor still needs to be spun at over 3000 rpm to light an LED. And gearing is not so good because the motor already has a lot of cogging. Startup torque would be awful if there was a 5:1 ratio in front of the motor.
Anyway, it's been fun. Nothing like rewinding your own motor to make you fell like a true EE!
Thanks for all the comments,
Jim
The best part of BLDC is, of coarse, there are no brushes. The down side is, there are no brushes. So, kinda good and kinda bad.
With no brushes the motor will last a very long time. There is only one moving part. So, as long as the bearings are good the motor will work. With no brushes, there is no friction either.
However, without brushes, the motor must be driven with a microprocessor. The micro switches the windings on, and off, to pull the magnets around. By controlling the switching rate the speed of the motor can be controlled. Many folks call the micro control box an ESC (electronic speed control).
It's easier to deal with the BLDC motor as a generator. The motor, when forced to turn, outputs a nice three phase waveform. You would need a scope with at least three channels to see this waveform. Without a scope, just use good-old google on "three phase waveform". Again, Wikipedia is the first link and they have some good info.
Jim
I had not thought about Delta / Wye. I went to wikipedia and tried to understand Delta / Wye. Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-%CE%94_transform
I also found some stuff on this site: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3726/is_200803/ai_n25138697/?tag=content;col1
An answer did not jump right out. However, sounds like a Wye connected motors will generate more voltage for the same amount of turns. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks again - good comments,
Jim
A much better page.
Yes star (or wye) will give you higher voltage then Delta for the same number of windings.
The existing magnet wire should be OK to reuse. I'll just rewind it using a single strand instead of the 5 / 6 stands in the original.
I'll play with both Wye & Delta just to see the difference. With all the wires hanging out of the motor it should be easy to make some measurements both ways.
Thanks for the encouragement,
Jim
The actual motor I'm playing with is a Alpha 400 from Exceed RC. The motor has a Kv of 3500 - which (roughly speaking) means 3500 rpm/V. As you can see in the attached pictures, I connected one phase of the motor to my Fluke 189 voltmeter. The Fluke can display both AC voltage and frequency at the same time.
Spinning the motor at full speed the Fluke displayed 60Hz at 0.25 volts. So, 0.25 volts rms * 1.414 * 2 = 0.707 volts peak-to-peak. But the motor constant would suggest voltage should equal (60 rps * 60 sec/min) / 3500 which equals 1.0 volt.
So, measured (no load) voltage equals 0.707 volts and theoretical equals 1.0 volts. I wonder if I'm missing something?
The Alpha 400 can be purchased in three different configurations. In other words, with three different motor constants. The three different motor constants available are 3500, 920, and 740. If I had purchased the 740 I would have gotten 3600rpm / 740 which is 4.9 volts (theoretical). This is much better for my application - higher voltage / lower current is a good thing when your trying to bring a LED to life.
I believe the only difference between the different motors is the way the windings are wound on the stator. As you can see in the attached picture, my 3500 uses parallel strands (5 or 6 strands grouped together) around each pole.
If I rewound the motor with a single strand around each pole I believe that would greatly lower the motor constant - which is my goal. I just haven't mustered the nerve to cut into my motor yet! I wonder how many parallel strands the 740 uses?
For the math inspired, the master BLDC equation I'm basing my assumptions on is: "T = 4 * N * B * L * R * i" So, for a given torque input from the windmill, the current will be i = T / (4 * N * B * L * R)". Bottom line, more turns gives me less current (more voltage) with a given torque. Note, the turns on the stator is the only knob I can control in this equation given an existing motor.
FYI, the other motor (Delphi) in the picture below was used in a automotive power steering application. I worked for Motorola who built the amplifier for the motor. I got involved in building some end-of-line testers for the amplifier.
Anyway, spinning the Delphi motor I got 4.2 volts rms at 3600rpm. It's just such a large beast - I smoked my voltmeter's 3 amp fuse by fooling with this dumb thing! However, I was able to get a LED to blink just by hand spinning the motor. Plus, the motor has angled magnets - there is almost no cogging which is important in a power steering application. Low cogging is also important when a windmill is just starting up. This motor would probably be good if making a large windmill. I remember the amplifier could dump 100 amps into that motor for short durations! It's just not the motor I'm looking for.
Thanks for all the comments,
Jim
Re-winding is an option but I would recommend just getting a cheep motor out of china.
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7070
380kv 40$ and about 10$ for shipping.
The motor spec says "6 turn" as one of the line-items. Does this mean the motor also uses multi-strands around each pole? If so, I'm curious how dramatic rewinding the motor would have on the motor constant.
I know there is trade off if the windings were rewound. No way the motor could handle high current. But, as a generator, it would be better to have higher voltages to work with. As an example, if the motor output was applied to a full-wave bridge diode block, the diodes would eat half a volt with their diode drop.
Thanks for the good comments,
Jim
What you want is a motor with a high kv, hence high number of turns.
Most low voltage rc motors use malty strand because it fits better on the core and reduces skin losses. AC has a tendency to use only the outer portion of a wire, this effect is increased at higher frequencies (higher rpm) and larger wires.
I recommend trying to rewire it with a single strand of wire something like 18 gauge and giving it a try.
But these motors just aren't suited for use as a slow speed generator.
There are lots of places online to find those gears, or gear-boxes for that matter.
Then on the motor side, put a real small pinion gear and light up a bulb, or charge a battery!
Just make sure you don't give up till you get what you want!
I think I'm going to bit-the-bullet and rewind my little motor. It would be really neat to see what a single strand wound on each pole would produce. I'm only at risk of trashing a $25 buck motor. Worth the risk.
Thanks,
Jim
Steve
have a read of the following forum thread its got a lot of information on driving brushless motors then think about the reverse of their conversation. XD
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1558046/tm.htm
Hope that helps
I just don't think the magnets are good for a generator application. The weak magnets are designed to get pulled around my the coils in the motor.
Oh well, the little motor only cost my $20 bucks mail order.
It is interesting, while spinning the motor by hand, if two of the wires are connected together the motor generates a big drag on the rotating motor shaft. Connecting all three wires together makes an even bigger drag. Interesting.
That's because when a generator is generating a current there is a force created in the opposite direction, that's why it takes more power to generate more power.
;-)
Steve
I this going to be on the final?
HTH
Steve
L