how to make permanent magnet motor ? is it true it is free energy device?

i heared that permanent magnet motor works on magnet repulsion and it is free energy device that works for life time....... is it true???

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dlapain6 years ago
There has only been one person in the world who as actually made a perpetual motion machine and he was just some old hobbyist who love playing with magnets he didn't attach any energy harnessing attributes to it but he got it to work (I forget his name but he appeared on a documentary before) his machine consisted of a ball that moved around in a perfect circle of precisely placed magnets under and over a track, which the ball moved a bunch of pendulums beneath it, the machine I believe is in vaulted up in a museum somewhere. and the guy is under some kind of witness protection program at the moment, because of the many people that would want to kill him to keep big company money making energy sources around because of all the jobs that would be lost. Which brings up another point anyone who creates such a machine successfully is gonna be in immediate danger if they introduce it to the public. So it's better to keep a low profile. Anyways back to the machine he made if he put magnets on the bottom of the pendulums and copper coils beneath them would it collect any energy whatsoever.
Nikola Tesla.... haha. And youre the first person Ive read bout who also knows... O.o
Nikola Tesla ? hmmm... I would not be surprised but thanks for the post I have been studying magnetic energys for some time did you know you can transfer energys between magnets! I drained one magnet making the other stronger in one of my experiments now I wanna figure out how to make it do so in a circle so no rotating parts is required and have copper coils absorb the energy into electricity and send power back to the electromagnets that send the power to the other magnets. I don't follow physics books by the way I just do! because physics books were written by human hands so can't always be true (but do have good points don't get me wrong). the only problem I have with what I'm doing is I can't see what is actually happening
BC5451 dlapain5 years ago
You mentioned that you transferred the magnetic energy from one magnet to another magnet? I am very interested to know how, is it hard to duplicate your experiment?
dlapain BC54515 years ago
The experiment is very precise, and I have found out to my surprise very dangerous proceed with Extreme caution! Overheat can happen and magnets and the metals can crack and become attached to each other like a bullet (meaning you'll lose body parts if not careful, though I never did I almost did)
BC5451 dlapain5 years ago
Thanks for your reply and the warning of overheating. May you please describe of your experiment, how did you do it? and did you take any pictures or video on your experiment?
dlapain BC54515 years ago
A circle of iron rods wrapped in copper which then the copper is looped back to electromagnets and then in between the loops you have magnets which then point to the copper, well im having trouble explaining this, but i dont give out documentation to anyone instead i give clues on how to do it, not trying to be a pest but if this got out it would change a lot of things, but anyway, its a circle that implements every form of magnetism put in a precise pattern to transfer the magnetic forces in order to produce electricity with no friction except in the copper on a microscopic scale

I am working on one.

I will try using.

Paramagnetic aluminum togetrer with magnets


And weight repulsion force

Did you find something intereating?

Is someone selling a functual generator.

I guess yes in China New Zealand and Australia

lakawak BC54512 years ago

There is no such thing as "magnetic energy" Therefore any experiments associated with it is a waste of time. Magnetic fields don't have energy. Period. They never will. No matter how much you have science and reality, that fact will never change.

This is type dumbest statement I've ever read. The whole earth is a magnet. Energy can be pulled straight from the ground anywhere at low levels. For you to actually say making energy with magnetism is impossible shows you know nothing about the world you live in. Stop spreading false statements witch causes people not to experiment and find new and old technologies taut have been hidden for 100s of years at least.

I just feel like destroying your argument. Lets use potential energy as an argument. If you are using magnets on your refridgerator to hold up something against the force of gravity then you are destroying your own argument. Gravitational Potential Energy is defined as (Mass x Gravitational Acceleration x Height) which indicates that the Earths gravitational field is transferring energy to the paper on your fridge. This sheet of printer paper has a mass of 4.8 grams. On my fridge it is located at 50 inches or 1.27 meters above ground. Gravitational acceleration is 9.8 meters per second squared. This means that, in order to hold the paper on the fridge, the magent is exerting a force of M x A or 4.8 grams (.0048kg) x (9.8 m/s^2) = .04704 Newtons at a height of 1.27 meters = 0.06 Joules. This magnetic energy is exerted constantly against the force of gravity. So, with respect to your argument, blow it out your ass! Or, on the more political side, read a book!

WOW!! Thats incredible! I did not know that about the transference of magnetic energy! And I think its wonderful what youre trying to do. You should send me a personal message and we shall keep eaaach other updated on our endeavours : ) I'm just attempting different variations of the classic magnetic motor for my first time >.<
Thanks for the comment I'm usually very busy, I took this long to write back so you see my point.

Not going to justify your comment, just going to show you! After this video I am done with all of you and this thread!

I got impressed by the same video dude!!!

This has since been proven to be totally fraudulent. Source:

Hey pddonovan2011, thanks for sharing this video, I'm very interested in magnetic energy myself :) I was hoping maybe you could email me and tell me more of what you know about creating magnetic engines/motors?

Not only did Tesla not do this...he never even CLAIMED to do it. His experiments were about TRANSMITTING electricity wirelessly. Not about harnessing electricity from some unknown source. That is why he conducted his experiments right next to the area's BIGGEST POWER PLANT at the time..the Niagara Falls hydroelectric plant. Why? Because he knew his experiments needed A LOT of electricity to be put into the system because wireless transmission of electricity is very inefficient.

If he was about creating energy from nothing, he would have conducted his experiments as far away from any conventional power plant as he could, if for no other reason but to shut the skeptics up. But he didn't do that because he never even claimed that is what he was doing. Unfortuantely, the internet has made an entire generation of people stupid. People who just repeat the same BS that they read on random websites to the point where more people repeat it from your post. Because none of you can do actual thinking anymore.

wow you better research tesla a little more. He had 3 inventions and was shut down bye the big energy people at the time. Only one of these. Creations was about transmitting energy through the air. Type other 2 created it and one was with air going through certain pattern and other was magnetism and copper

lakawak dlapain2 years ago

There has never even any person who has done it since magnets won't work and never will. idiots playing around in his garage has come up with something that the world's top scientists have been trying for centuries

EltonB511 months ago

hi davel1

yes it is true no human can create or destroy energy and as far as we know nothing lasts forever including magnets.

but as far as free energy is concerned i am afraid i don`t agree with you on that.

i believe we have been blessed with a lot of free energy and power.

we are practically submerged in free energy, our planet ,galaxy ,universe and so on

free energy is all around us

all we need to do is to build a device able to collect it

(that device can not be called a perpetual machine)

DaveI111 months ago

It is a fact that energy cannot be created or destroyed...this means there is no such

as free energy forever because magnet's power will be declined in time.

and7barton8 years ago
I think, for the price or a dozen or two high-power bar magnets and some work, you could set up a very low-friction rotating disc and do some experiments of your own, but what would you propose for suitable shielding to direct the field ?

It's basically a waste of money to even try. There IS no shielding, period.

and7barton8 years ago
Unfortunately the jury is out on this one. The likes of Sterling Allen keep up an optimistic flow of info about "progress", but to date little has been shown that provides acceptible proof that the concept has any real promise. The concept seems simple, to have a wheel consisting of angled magnets, free to revolve inside a ring of oppositely-angled magnets, their fields shielded so as to only project tangentally to the circumference of the rotating part. The problem, as I see it, is that so far, there isn't a truly effective shield material, the result being that some of the magnetic field actually leaks through and opposes the direction of rotation of the rotor. That's as far as my limited knowledge goes on this concept. But I have considered doing some of my own experiments.
Who comprises this Jury that hasn't made a decision yet? L
The jury is science - Peer review - repeatable experimental results - nothing has happened. The whole concept is still "Borderline Science".
Please provide citations for your so-called "peer reviewed" articles on this concept. What journals did they appear in? When? Have those articles been cited anywhere else?

I never said there WERE peer-reviewed articles. So far as I know, there AREN'T any, which explains a lot about the entire concept of magnetic motors and extracting energy from magnets.I said that Science relies upon peer review. It also relies on repeatability.

I don't know of any authentic repeated experiments - not by any reputable scientists anyway - experiments repeated by other amateur experimenters and inventors don't count. Maybe I'm in error here - but I don't know of any.
Okay, thanks very much for the clarification. The "problem" (which I don't mean disparagingly) with amateurs is that they don't generally document or measure operational parameters with sufficient detail or precision to be useful. Even when they are not hoaxsters (and as you know, this field is rife with them!), amateurs tend to overlook sources of systematic error -- e.g., using a vibrating bearing that can transfer momentum and keep a wheel turning -- or to explain away "failures" of their setup which actually point to fundamental obstacles.
There are scientists who still haven't decided whether this type of free energy really is/isn't? I should think most science - peer review would say "prove it", rather than "maybe"?
Can you link to something scientific that's undecided, I'm interested?
Although this might just be down to the specifics of what we regard science and scientific appraisal to be...

If you Google it, there should be plenty to get your teeth into if you want information of the concept of it. I liken it to a turbine, where, instead of say, gas impinging upon the blades of the turbine wheel, you have two opposing (like) magnetic fields impinging upon each other. I wouldn't worry about the semantics of what's scientific and what isn't - I'd worry more about whether this thing could work. The intriguing thing about it is that it's not necessarily "Perpetual Motion"...... We could consider the magnetic field to be an energy input, although exactly what a permanent magnet's field actually is, could be discussed and argued about lengthily. That strange character Ed Leedskalnin seemed to have discovered many years ago, something of a similar nature, and possibly anti-gravity too. don't care about science, and therefore you think it is wrong? Also...Ed Leedskalnin did nothing but use simple levers

I meant some real scientific judgment, rather than what you can trawl off the internet. As people go in general, free energy is as credible as space-aliens, ectoplasm, bigfoot etc. I thought you were referring to something more authoritative, but that's why I said it might just be down to the specifics of what we regard science and scientific appraisal to be L
lakawak lemonie2 years ago

There is not one single REAL scientist who is still uncertain on this. None have EVER been uncertain by this. They know it is impossible.

Where does the energy you extract, or the energy lost to friction come from ? Steve
I imagine you are extracting it from the magnetic field. It would eventually deplete the magnet. I'm not even sure you can extract energy from the device in any practical amount. It may even be found to be a cousin of the Crookes Radiometer - Spins around fast but it's useless for any practical purpose. I wouldn't consider it to be "Perpetual Motion", because if it's extracting energy from the magnetic field of the magnets, and depleting it, then it's not perpetual.

Magnetic fields don't have energy. So you can't extract any out of it. So right there, your belief in incredibly stupid. It shows you know absolutely NOTHING about science, so why are you commenting on it?

Let me ask you this...if magnetic fields are energy, then give the formula you can use to figure out how much energy is in a magnet. If it has energy, then there has to be some formula to determine it. have the whole internet at your disposal...give me that formula.

Heh, I thought of this in grade 8 and abandoned the idea because you can't shield the magnetic fields.
kelseymh jeff-o8 years ago
There are magnetic shields. We use mu-metal to isolate photomultipier tubes from static magnetic fields in detectors, for example. However, magnetic shielding generally works only against static, and relatively low-strength, fields. can shield magnetic fields. You just can't shield only one half (either the attaraction or the repulsion force) of it. So you either have a full blown magnetic that won't work, or you have no magnetic at all..which won't work.

jeff-o kelseymh8 years ago
Neat!! But as you said, the shielding only works for low strength fields. It also looks like you'd need a pretty thick layer, making a PM motor very bulky!
When kelseymh says 'static' fields, he means ones that are not moving. Which seems to defeat the purpose in this case.
Yes ! - A shield that's thicker than the distance the field extends anyway ! The actual design requires that the magnets be pretty close together, leaving only narrow gaps to insert blocking pieces. But has anyone any suggestions as to what material these shields might be made of ? Some kind of non-permeable material - maybe simple plain steel, would block SOME. But would it ne necessary to block ALL of the field ? - Also, would the field "leak" around the ends of the shields to any extent ? Both of these possible problems might result in the machine failing to work.
I don't know of anything that will shield a magnetic field. You can obviously short-circuit a magnet, but then you'd have no magnetic field (or to be more precise, a much reduced field).
" Free energy magnet motor part 3 " on you tube that gives the suggestion that angle iron might be able to quote on quote 'focus' the magnetisom more than steel. if this were proven the better 'magnet controller' then you could be able to follow the therory of having a 2 : 1 magnetic wheel (that simply is this guys plan for "free" energy). Please if anyone has done this test than can you please report back!
here is the video :
i figured out if you put a BIG piece of steel on a magnet  it will lose most of the magnetic-ness out o maybe disperse it
Exactly. You can't focus a magnetic field into a "beam" like you can with light.

The jury is not, AND HAS NVER been out on this. IT can't be done.

JV61 year ago

it's true obviously... But the motor will lose its magnetic efficiency and BAM... But it's not a free energy device.. Everyone should know that. It's needs human intervention or human aid to work.. The motor should be smooth enough to overcome any friction!!

and7barton JV61 year ago

Bill gates ?

NadeemI71 year ago

I am addressing these words to whom "THEY ARE CONVINCE THAT THIS IS NO FREE ENERGY AND PERPETUAL MOTION LIKE THING ETC." please leave or provide the proof like other did.

House2301 year ago

The carrier for the magnetic field is the photon. The sun has loads of them. If only someone could invent device to point at the sun to make electricity, rather than arsing around with magnets.

Magnet motors have been pursued, by many over the years, to the point that a Turkish born citizen has one that is quite powerful and runs with frightening output. But the one dirty little secret that all the MagMotor Experimenters WON'T tell you is this. All magnet motors use a mixture of magnetic attraction AND repulsion, there for they ALL over heat after an extended time period and have to be turned off, allowed to cool and then you can play with them again! The 'Holy Grail' of Motors is the motor that spins magnets over an extra set of coils that powers the device AFTER it is started using a simple circuit that recaptures magnetic flux and converts that flux back to electricity, in real time, and you can tap into that energy and use it to power you life! The beautiful thing about such a device is that is runs COOLER than ambient. Remember this name, 'Magnetic Air Motors', this company has built the first true Magnetic Power Generator and has a working prototype that shaves $500 off the top of their energy bill to their workshop. They are providing the opportunity for Phd and scientific types to come test their invention to try and disprove their claim. As yet none have been successful. Their device runs up to 10 degrees below ambient ALL THE TIME! It is the first such device to perform in the realm of 'Over-unity!' All kidding aside, this time, someone got it right!

NONE of what you say is true.

over unity does not exist. simple as that.

sethzor6 years ago
Here is the answer you are looking for.

There are tons of rumors of people doing things and dying or being hidden as for all that mumbo jumbo it answers no part of this question.
Does it work yes, as we all know it is true that like charges push away.
Will it produce enough push to make energy? if you have the money to build it big enough then yea sure why not.
That being said "There is no such thing as free lunch."
Learn it live it love it.(or at least accept it.)
Perpetual motion works on paper but in the real world things break down. The breakdown rate for magnets ranges from 2 years all the way to 500 years. So it will last your lifetime but just because it out lives you and your kids, so on and so forth, does not make it perpetual it will end at some point.

Any more questions on the matter ask away I have done days of research on things like this.
As far as perpetual motion it is possible because it is evident in nature....the natural water cycle. So it reasons that if someone was able to artificially reproduce that cycle on a condensed scale then he or she could possibly have a perpetual energy source.

dude. the natural water cycle exchanges so much energy. if you count in devices with external feeders i have a much more efficient one for you: solar panels.

In no way am I saying it doesn't exist I am only 19 and I have been working on a perpetual motion device for almost 8 years now. I have come very close however there is a reason every single person doesn't have one sitting in the back yard. So anyways what I was saying is that anything most people will see on the news or will see on this site for that matter may be long lasting great ideas but at some point any el cheepo is just going to break down.
lakawak sethzor2 years ago

Sorry little boy...but no 11 year old is going to accomplish something that the world's top scientific minds have failed to do for centuries. It is actually kind of sad how much of your life you have wasted on such a pointless endeavor.

veeman Jakcavar5 years ago
That's not true at all. The water cycle is only going because it is getting energy from the sun. It is'nt self sustaining and requires an energy input. Good try though.
Jakcavar veeman5 years ago
but if you use part of the energy that can be created from the fall of water to heat the water to create steam then use that steam to create more out flow of energy then you have perpetual motion

so yes you are correct in saying that you need a heat source for the water cycle to work but other the water cycle also happens at night when the son is on the other side of the earth so unless the sun implodes or explodes the water cycle will run forever or until the water completely drys up

Except that you CAN'T use "part of the energy created from the fall of the water to heat the water to create steam." because the energy you get out of the falling water is not nearly enough to do that.

veeman Jakcavar5 years ago
But wouldn't you need a 100% efficient way to create the steam? Meaning 1 gallon of water falling would need to heat up 1 gallon of water for it to work. Or am I misunderstanding your concept?
grillge veeman5 years ago
Not true
V track motor.gif
lakawak grillge2 years ago

So you are one of those people that falls for faked videos where someone has an air compressor bowing on the wheel from off screen?

ever realised that this was a gif format image? or are you just here to troll?
Wow.How laong till we dont see this anymore,huh? Very good.
lakawak sethzor2 years ago

You obviously have not done very good research on this. Perpetual motion does not work on paper any more than it works in the real world. On paper...people with an actual science background can tell you exactly where any perpetual motion machine will fail to work.

lakawak sethzor2 years ago

Does it work? No. Because magnets don't just push away. They also attract. So...all the devices that you surely are thinking of are HOAXES. There is not one single permanent magnet motor that will make the computer fan, or whatever else it is attached to spin even ONE time. It has nothing to do with "can you get any energy out of it" it is about that without a hidden battery, or an off camera air compressor, it itself won't spin.

do you have any suggestions for tesla "magnetic",or like ideas that i could actually apply to my home.My hubby is physically disabled,very dependant upon electricity.Therefore i'm concerned about power outages for longer periods of time .It has happened,i almost lost him.Our son is 4 yrs old.Im taking care myself not trying to b a saint just trying to give him a chance .I need any sugesstions.Where i live the snow weighs down pwer lines snappining them it takes weeks sometimes to get it back.can u suggest anything? Thank you for yopur time and consideration,Nicole.
JerryS62 years ago

Why do you say it doesn't work? Have you tried it? If not then quit saying it want. The parts to build a simple pc fan motor generator are easy enough to come by. Try it. What can it hurt. It'd be a good experiment. Hell if it works then build it bigger and better. Also if these motors are a hoax then dc electric motors are fake as well, because they work under the same principle. A free energy motor just replaces the electro magnet with a permanent one.

Reactor19672 years ago

In this blog
toward the bottom the author shows how to make free a free energy generator. But, for a PPM basically there are two designs that are most popular. The vortex design with a round magnet and another smaller magnet or magnets in the middle with one missing.

The second design is magnets on a will with outer magnets turning on a pole against the magnets on the well.

Here is the sight for the high energy PPM generator. It is a PPM turning a homopolar generator that goes to circuits to amplify the output. It talks about a lot of other stuff as well.

grillge5 years ago
Yes here's proof just copy and past the link to see a v track magnet motor in action , it has room for improvement but it works none the less.
V track motor.gif
lakawak grillge2 years ago

One of the most well known fakes. Amazing that you are fooled by it.

and7barton8 years ago
Additional : It reminded me of the energy used in turning wind turbines. Even this isn't "FREE" energy, it's using a source of energy that is external to the system - namely the energy of the Sun. Likewise WAVE energy (for generating electricity) - This is extracting energy from the Earth's rotation. I think the only thing a magnet motor CAN being xtracting energy from, is the actual magnet itself.
Well? Im not good in physics but i think i still have my common sense. Free Energy is energy we can tap without paying it. We never pay for the sun to shine just to collect solar energy, and same with the wind, we never pay for the wind to blow as strong as we need to make the wind turbine rotate. Am i wrong?
lakawak freakoh2 years ago

That is not what the term means. The SCIENTIFIC term "free energy" has absolutely nothing to do with money. It is about creating energy with no external input.

There is no such thing as free as in money either. Say you got a solar set up or wind turbine. They cost a LOT of money up front. So it isn't is simply paying a lot of money up front. Trying to call that free is like saying "I just paid $20,000 in cash to the auto-dealership. Now my car is FREE."

lemonie8 years ago
No - the free energy bit is not true. Do you still want to build a motor?

i agree with the fact that energy is not free....but thats speaking so literally....what if we agreed that energy we recieve from the sun or earth is "free" because we dont have to do anything for it to be created. we just harness it. kind of like a parasite. also to raise another question, about magnetic engery, i think that a magnet is one of the most efficient forms of a battery we can make. (very generally speaking)does anyone agree? and here is my reasoning behind that statement: It takes molting steel and electricity to make a magnet and those require engery (obviously) but what im trying to get at is that the magnet absorbs the most energy, thus making the harnessing of the energy the MOST EFFICIENT compared to a battery or a motor or whatevever. for instance our car engine loses OVER HALF of the energy it creates from gas through heat. (energy is heat which is in turn molecular motion/destablization)thus making the motor inefficient. but a magnets energy as far as i know doesnt create heat (assuming no friction) and can be turned into linear motion. plus it looses its energy over a long period of time which in leads me to believe that its either loaded with all of this unexplainable energy or it very slowly releases the energy that it has contained, none the can last longer than a battery which is why i think its better...we just need to figure out how to harness it....which brings everyone back around to the topic at hand haha.
There have to dat been no proven successful purely magnetic motors 9although you can find supposed demos on the internet.

There is no such thing as magnetic shielding material that is not magnetic.

About the closest is this demo that as far as I know is still running but obviously only just produce enough energy/movement to keep itself running.

The statement free energy relates to the idea you could (perhaps) build a machine that produced more energy than it used and so drive itsellf, so called over unity engines. Another name is perpetual motion. Not possible under our current understanding of the laws of physics.
yes there have. several people have done it, i think one or two groups got one to power a house. it used a lightweight plastic frame that turned because of magnets on the rotar and inner casing, which then turned a shafter with an alternator or generator on the end. but it was pretty big. and i suppose the house didn't consume much, but it worked.

No...there hasn't. Stop wasting your life on the internet just blindly believing everything you read rather than actually using your brain.

You can THINK what you want...but not only are magnets not one of the most efficient forms of batteries there is, but they aren't batteries AT ALL. They don't store energy. None. Magnetic fields are FORCES...not energy. .

If you don't understand this very simple (junior high school level) scientific concept, then why are you joining a conversation about science?

The energy you get from electromagnetism (of this type) comes from doing work against the magnetic field. It's not being juiced out of the magnet, it's the hard-work turning the thing. L
cShellPro5 years ago
Most electric motors use a set of permanent magnets and a set of electromagnets which repel each other. If you replace the electromagnet with another set of permanent magnets, you get a magnetic motor.

If you replace the electromagnets with permanent magnets you will get a motionless motor. One that will never spin.

if you want to look like an idiot in front of your teachers, yes it is worth a shot. energy is not free and never will be. As Lavoisier said: Nothing can be created, Nothing can be lost, Everything is transformed.
that applies to energy. for example electricity:
in a wire it will produce a minuscule amount of heat and some electromagnetism. that electricity was tranformed into those things.
in a motor, it gets transformed into electromagnetic force as well as some heat and then into torque and speed to drive the motor shaft as well as some heat again. in a light bulb, it gets converted into light, and into heat again.

there will always be something used up in the process and that something will be transformed into electrical energy.
can you explain where a permanent magnet gets its energy from? dont say residual magnetism.
what kind of magnet?
most magnets are magnetized by an intense electromagnetic field.
some rare earths are magnetized naturally, although I would not be able to tell you how, even though I suspect a certain geometry in their structure is responsible for that.
was that what you expected?
or did you want me to simply say "residual magnetism" even though it isn't the answer?

Just stop embarrassing yourself. Magnetic fields are NOT energy. It is a force. Force is not energy. All you are doing is showing that you have a complete ignorance of even BASIC science. Magnets are not like a battery where you put energy into them and it converts it to a magnetic field that it can release slowly. They just aren't.

consider the magnetization of a soft iron core (not the naturally occurring process). it gets its magnetic properties after the process is finished. how does it retain its property for such a long time. most say its residual magnetism.
Well what about it? Are you trying to prove a point here? And if so, what is it?
energy neither be created nor be destroyed .ur saying is right but the question is permanent magnet motor works on magnet repulsion and it is free energy device that works for life time....... is it true??? give me exact reply sir
lakawak mahe7352 years ago

Magnets don't HAVE energy. You can't get energy out of them because magnetic fields have none of give you. This is not even up for debate. It is a scientific FACT. And you are NOT going to outsmart the world's top scientists for the last several centuries. You just aren't. You are not smart. They are.

lakawak2 years ago

The electric car was not killed. Nobody anted it. And not it exists. So how can it be killed?

You can waste your life trying to do the impossible all you want...but realize it is only your total ignorance of science that makes you think it is possible. I am not sure why you think that you..who failed high school science and never too it again, is smarter than EVERY SINGLE SCIENCE that has ever lived...ALL of which agree it is not possible.

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