Instructables

A Discussion and Breakdown of Opinions and Controversy Within The Community

So I had this dumb idea that a few of us "KI"ers, as you call us, could have a fruitful and interesting discussion based on several topics through an audio AMA-type format.  The idea is that you guys post a bunch of questions below, and we answer and elaborate as we see fit after a week or so, putting all the discussion in a nice, short 30-ish minute podcast.  If you're interested in hearing us talk about whatever, whether it be our taste in mechanics, or what happened with KI, or even how you guys feel about us, let us know below and we'll see how this goes.  Again, I aim to approach this with a semi-serious and thoughtful tone, so it's not just going to be 30 minutes of us saying "lol those ibles guys are so silly" and such nonsense.

I don't expect much to come out of this, but if we have some fun or start a fluid conversation, it'll be worth it.

Picture of A Discussion and Breakdown of Opinions and Controversy Within The Community
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KILLERK3 months ago

let's hear it already! Lol get to action

+1

KILLERK4 months ago

Never too old for fun! I'm excited to hear the talk.

DJ Radio4 months ago

PS, are you guys really having these same discussions on ammo and semi-autos from 2 years ago? I thought the metagame would have been established as to what is "correct" by now.

DJ Radio4 months ago

Wow, just saw this. Never thought I'd see the day when Mepain would post again. I may have moved on to bigger things but this was a crucial part of my early teenage years. I wish you the best of luck with this endeavor.

I would be interested to hear you more experienced K'NEXers talk about why you prefer rod ammo over connector ammo. I extremely dislike rod ammo, but so many of you KIers like connector ammo (and yes, I literally did a survey: http://theredbookofwestmarch.weebly.com/the-weekly..., its the second to last survey/poll on the page, down at the very bottom) that I would like to hear why. There are a lot of other issues that I would love to hear addressed, but many (if not all) are super subjective and heavily opinionated, so that they would not be much help to the community.

Not to butt in, and I'd like their input as well. But just my quick two cents; I really like connector ammo as well for one main reason: it's reliable and easy to work with. That said, there are a few problems with it. First off, the one that I dislike most is they take up more space, about 2 connectors for every 3 rods if you measure. Second, they're more piece hogging depending on what you fire. Like if you wanted to use a grey and orange, then you'd have those two and a green rod connecting them. Finally, they're less durable and prone to breaking. I'd highly recommend using a rod to absorb the impact of a pin gun regardless of the ammo. And even then, if you hit something hard enough, the front of the ammo will break. Furthermore, if you have multiple pieces, then there's a chance your ammo will break into them.

The only real downfall of rod ammo is the interlocking nature of them in magazines, which we've bypassed by chambering them and firing separately.

Also, Ooda did his research apparently. Oodammo wins. And then I think it was red rods? Correct me otherwise. But because red rods are rather obnoxiously long, yellows serve just as well.

I'm with you there. I personally prefer connector ammo for multiple reasons.

In the first place, I find connector ammo (from now on, CA) to weigh more than rod ammo (from now on, RA). Why is this important? Well, in the first place, I find that heaver ammo (in a smaller package, mind you) tends to be more accurate. Now mind you, I not saying that a grey rod would be more accurate than a red rod, 'cause I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be. What I am saying is that because CA tends to be heavier than a rod of the same size (and can be much heavier than a rod of a much larger size), it seems to give it more accuracy.

In the second place, because it (CA) can be smaller than rod ammo, it can still spin in the air without a heavy decrease in range (as a result of friction from the air). If I were to shoot a yellow rod and a dark grey one slot connector + a green rod, and if both were to spin, the dark grey connector + a green rod would (necessarily) go farther than the yellow rod, as a result of less drag.

Lastly, CA is better (IMO) than RA because it lacks all of the edges that make RA so horribly annoying to me. This, in and of itself, is why I prefer connector ammo.

All of what you say about connector ammo may be (or is...?) true, but, in my humble opinion, connector ammo weighs more, flies truer, spins less, is easier to use (has less jams) than rod ammo.

As to the research that Ooda did, I know not. I am not a big fan of oodammo, it is just to big for my tastes.

*ignore all typoes within this comment, it was scarcely proof read*

Perfectly understandable. Well, what say you to this? Test different ammo for yourself. If your theories hold true, then they should show clearly in testing. From my experience, shorter ammo will spin out faster, but once it does spin out, the effects are less substantial than on longer ammo. Really the trick is making ammo with a heavier front than the back. That's what oodammo did, albeit not perfectly. While it's wide and not good for traditional barrels, the nice thing about it is it's still short, and it helped invent break-open magazines and speed loaders.

I have often wanted to do this, the problem is finding a gun that anyone here on instructables would be fine with me using as a base. I would love to put a study out there that shows what ammo does what, but I have never had the time, the gun, or the patience to do it. I'm sure you can understand that. *wink wink*

All that you say about oodammo may be true, I guess I wasn't around then. The industrial revo... I mean, the oodammo revolution.

Well, in my opinion, you should just make a generic firing pin housing that can accept different fronts, which could be a magazine or a single shot chamber with a bullet lock. Then you're using the same consistent firing action but optimizing barrels and whatnot to cater to each ammo. I'd then also test a single connector round vs a magazine of connectors being directly fed.

I think I might just do that. =D Thanks for the suggestion.

Awesome, I look forward to it. And as much as you dislike it, I still suggest testing oodammo in there too.

Okay, fine! Have it your way!

XD

KILLERK TheDunkis5 months ago

my fim ammo is best

BTW, you said "fim" ammo? ...What is that?

lol I usually respond on my phone, screen size suks so in turn so does my spelling.

Yeah, I can relate. =D I'm just messing with you.

lol I usually respond on my phone, screen size suks so in turn so does my spelling.

Well that was a humble comment... (I am teasing, I am teasing) XD

I don't say that you are wrong, but because fin ammo does not work in magazines, I have never been a big fan. Just my opinion. =D

yeah fun ammo has not been mag fed yet pros and cons to everything ;P

That is true, very true. =D BTW, you said "fun ammo" not "fin ammo." I guess fin ammo is fun ammo... XD

TheDunkis KILLERK5 months ago

Eh, but that's not truly K'nex ammo. That's K'nex with modifications. And if you're going to do that, then why not just outright make ammo that's actually designed to be ballistic? K'nex were clearly not designed to fly. But yes, fins are a quick and cheap mod to stablize them.

KILLERK TheDunkis5 months ago

yes but if that was the case then every firing pin ever made would be considered illegal too. We use tape on our firing pins which is broadly accepted no reason fin ammo can't be allowed. Rubberbands, string, even tape is used by K'nex in sticker forum so if you made the fins outta K'nex stickers it would be very legal which is how I justify the tape on the firing pins and on fin ammo. Plus the ammo I make is very elaborate and well designed with years of perfecting. The tape is not just slapped on it is constructed with every piece for a specific reason. It is almost an art form one of my favorite creations.

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TheDunkis KILLERK5 months ago

Fair enough. Though I tend to only use rubber bands, even on the pin which when wrapped securely enough serves just as well as tape. I'm just saying that you might as well fire something entirely non-K'nex that's better suited for flying rather than starting with K'nex only to modify it.

...you mean turning the pieces of tape such that it allows the ammo to spin while flying?

KILLERK TheDunkis5 months ago

I'm not saying other ammo types don't have a part to play I'm just very biased that fin ammo is an all around good ammo type. Rods are good shotgun rounds for indoor or close range fights connector ammo had potential you covered the pros and cons of those but they do have there place. I think that ammo types will evolve a bit over time depending on the guns being built and usage of them guns.

Mepain (author)  The Red Book of Westmarch5 months ago

This is a good question that I'd be happy to discuss for the project.

Good! =D

TheRacker4 months ago

Oh wow, it's not often I see lots of the people here comment.

+1

TheDunkis5 months ago

Is there anything really left? I figured all differences were put aside. The only mysteries is what everyone at KI is up to these days and how long 'ibles will trail along with a dying community with very few newcomers.
Though I will still hang onto my definition of a semi auto K'nex weapon because gun-**ore.

Mepain (author)  TheDunkis5 months ago

That may be, but I can't help but feel that there's still a stigma every now and again, but maybe I'm imagining it. That said, this idea's main purpose was not intended just for the whole rivalry thing.

Honeslty, in the end, I just wanted to talk about knexguns with an end goal in mind. I don't feel that the type of conversation I'm looking for would be as engaging over text. So yeah, just for fun.

TheDunkis Mepain5 months ago
Mostly it's just because you're all an older bunch while 'iblers tend to be a younger bunch.

As for guns, I believe we have a lot of potential concepts that have yet to be explored or perfected, but they are difficult. I'd recommend a KIer gives one a shot because you'd be most qualified but then I think to myself that they wouldn't be appealing enough to justify finding enough time to work on one.

+ln(2.718282)

+d/dx (x)

'dying community'. I suppose that you think 'K'nex gun builders' are a whole new different community here on 'Ibles, rather than you talking about the K'nexing community in general.

Dying you say?

Well, not that I keep tabs, but I see a lot more "hur dur, I'm quitting Kaynecks because no thyme, so I sells all my peaces" threads than I see newcomers. It's a lot easier to quit than it is to become a good builder and start contributing to the community. We've come a long way since I've started here. Back in the day, magazine guns were just being made more efficient. We had yet to figure out how to make them removable and reliable, how to make them stronger, etc. A lot of concepts like bolt action didn't exist yet. So it was easier for a newb like me to come along and introduce concepts. This isn't bragging, this is an example, because it really wasn't that impressive in hindsight: I figured out a simple way to make an angled handle magazine for pistols. That was easy, but it was something new. Also, the Oodammo pistol was beautifully simple yet had some of the best range and reliability of the day, even though I wasn't the only person to think of a repeating oodammo weapon. Heck, oodammo itself was revolutionary even though it was just Ooda dinking around with different connector-rod combinations. New things were coming up all the time. These days, it's harder to come up with a new concept, let alone a useful one. We come under the scrutiny of others who might say "this is cool, but what's the point?" But we had to take a lot of stepping stones to reach our final destinations. Bolt action turned from being a gimmick to being an actual functional concept for example.

So yeah, there's my rant. I think we're dying. I'd like for us to "advertise" the hobby, per se, to different websites and see if we can grab some newcomers that might offer fresh ideas. It's interesting to witness, we all tend to have our own building styles, and anyone that is inspired by us tends to have similar styles. But if you can get someone new to start by learning the basics and then taking off with their own ideas before they get too used to seeing what's normal, they can make some pretty innovative designs.

Well I hope you don't mind me hijacking in this conversation but I agree with a lot of things your saying. How it was easier in the beginning and all that jazz but a dying community? Sure newcomers are hard to come by and I see your point in that, but realistically the members we have now are solid and still turning out new guns even though they may not be innovative.

I don't remember how long you've been around, but I'm assuming you weren't here when we were really active. Simple, more people and more activity then, less people and less activity now = dying. Go look through K'nex posts and sort by recent. The further you go back, likely the more instructions you'll see a week. Likewise, this forum had almost the entire front page filled with daily posts. Now we're lucky if there are a few posts a day. The general trend points towards inactivity. And while we have some dedicated members now, do you honestly expect them all to continue K'nexing all their lives? I've been building longer than most people typically go for, but I only ever really have time to build a handful of times a month. There are few K'nexers that were around when I started, and I started far from the beginning of K'nex guns. Even if others choose to keep building as they grow older, likely they'll find less time to do it. So unless we find some fresh new members to keep it going, yes, I believe we'll see the community fade. The less active it is, the less motivated others are to post.

Oh yeah I forgot to say I'm a relativly new knex gun builder I came to this site in 2012. I have 12 years of knex building under my belt and I had spent 10 of it not knowing that I could build guns out of knex. Coming here I was shocked to see working guns out of knex, so I started building some. I got the basics down now, so I'm stretching to see what I can build now.

That explains how you got good fairly quickly, having a lot of previous building experience before guns. Most people learn from scratch.

Well I guesa that's true too. Guess I'm kind of one who of those people who really just doesn't want to believe what is happening. We'll regain momentum though, like what you said, we just need to get some publicity. I've taken some of knex guns to college with me sometimes trying to stir up some intrest but my efforts were hindered by a school shooting in another campus.... I don't want to be carrying a gun like object after that...

I don't remember how long you've been around, but I'm assuming you weren't here when we were really active. Simple, more people and more activity then, less people and less activity now = dying. Go look through K'nex posts and sort by recent. The further you go back, likely the more instructions you'll see a week. Likewise, this forum had almost the entire front page filled with daily posts. Now we're lucky if there are a few posts a day. The general trend points towards inactivity. And while we have some dedicated members now, do you honestly expect them all to continue K'nexing all their lives? I've been building longer than most people typically go for, but I only ever really have time to build a handful of times a month. There are few K'nexers that were around when I started, and I started far from the beginning of K'nex guns. Even if others choose to keep building as they grow older, likely they'll find less time to do it. So unless we find some fresh new members to keep it going, yes, I believe we'll see the community fade. The less active it is, the less motivated others are to post.

ded

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Is that so.jpg

+1

didexo TheDunkis5 months ago

+1

Whaleman5 months ago

You people still around? KI's down because money is expensive, but are you still running the IRC? If so you should remind me the info to get on.

KILLERK5 months ago

what a great looking group of guys in the pic above! lol yeah mepain chat it up and for the love of god lets get the guys together to build soon!

+1 I want in on this!

jollex5 months ago

KI and ibles were both a large part of my teenage years, so I'd like to thank you all for being a part of that and providing a community for me to be a part of. I picked a really good day to randomly check ibles again.

hunter999 jollex5 months ago

You still lurk here?

jollex hunter9995 months ago

Occasionally.

hunter999 jollex5 months ago

Cool! You should build some more awesomeness. I was a big fan of your builds. :-)

Also, there is a K'nex contest this summer - you should join! :-)

zKnar jollex5 months ago

<3

didexo5 months ago

First off, love the gif :D. Also, I'd be interested to see what the "KI"ers have been up to and would enjoy a general convosation about K'nex.