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The Constitution

Can I just say the consitution is dead in America? That it doesnt count for much anymore?

Freedom to assemble-I dont think what the founders meant was freedom to apply for a permit to assemble.
Right to bear arms-again i dont think that was fill out the application and never actually bear the arms, leave them locked in a cabinet in your house
Pursuit of happiness-Is that not what the law  does, prevents people from doing what makes them happy. Are people going around saying 'What law could I break to make myself less happy'?
Freedom of speech-I dont know about this one. I guess that's upheld pretty well.

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gmoon2 years ago

You can say that, but not everyone will agree. The constitution is just a document, one that evolved as the young country grew. Unfortunately it's become more of a "sacred text" -- a bone of contention mixed into contemporary politics, with one side or the other arguing about the original intent.

But rights tend not to be absolute: one person's right to freedom of speech ends with libel or slander, or child pornography, etc.

My right to freely drive down the street ends when a pedestrian walks in front of my car. That's an example that rights exist in a hierarchy--the pedestrian's right to live supersedes my right to move about freely.

Same with the Second Amendment: reasonable limits apply. I'd be unhappy if my neighbor brandished a bazooka or a 50 cal machine gun. In an era where many states are adopting concealed carry laws (I live in an open carry and CC carry state), I find it surprising that people think gun ownership is too restrictive in the USA. And I personally do own firearms (inherited, but I've used them).

It's a complicated issue, and one where rights overlap. Do open carry laws abridge my right to freedom of speech? (in areas where opponents to my views openly carry guns to intimidate...) Feeling and beliefs on this tend to vary, state-to-state.

Other claims, like the Feds don't have a constitutional right to collect a Federal income tax is argued by some. But the 16th amendment seems to trump that argument.

One constitutional area where righties and lefties seem to agree is the Fourth Amendment: searches and seizures seem to be applied much too liberally by police and other gov authorities (IRS, for instance), currently. Likewise for your citation of the freedom of assembly in the first amendment, which is often over-regulated.

nathanaloysiusbash (author)  gmoon2 years ago

Gmoon, I really dont agree with the right to bear arms, or even to own lethal weapons. There are just two many two year olds pulling mom's gun out of her purse and blowing someone's head off, etc. Situations even go wrong with police officers mistakenly killing someone. More should be done developing non lethal means of police action, such as better tasers or fast acting tranquilizers, I dont know something. There is too much technology in the world for a gun to be a police officers go to weapon. Because when they shoot, they shoot to kill. But then if you made guns illegal, the only people who would have them would be criminals and it would make guns even more desirable. Like how illegalizing drugs didnt exactly solve all the drug related crime. As far as the federal government collecting tax, I'm not sure that they should. Is there even a need for a federal government, what with the ease that state governers could communicate and thereby make up a 50 person decision making group. Think about the states with legalized marijuana. Just one example of how states are perhaps ready to govern themselves if there was more cooperation/communication amongst them. It's my belief that if there is a federal government their main form of income should be from the selling of raw materials, metals, oil, crops. The post office just isnt cutting it for them to be sustainable. More could be done for the federal government to generate an income without stepping on the toes of small business owners. Let them create the finished products. I realize thats not how democracy works, but Just as communist china has incorporated the best aspects of capitalism and democracy, maybe the US could incorporate Some the more fubnctional aspects of the Chinese government, Because China is buying up the mines, gaining unrestricted control of natural resources, creating finished products cheaper than Murica can buy the raw materials.

I wish more people had your attitude about firearms. I've only used them for animal control on my in-laws farm. With varmints and such there's a danger of rabies, especially if an animal is acting "weird." I'm not a fan of "carrying" -- the statistics don't support the idea that more guns make people safer (they don't).

I suspect his thread will draw ire at some point, due to the internet's attraction to gun proponents.

Many people think that effective governance is probably a hybrid of democracy, socialism, etc., with laissez faire capitalism being a relatively poor choice, by itself. Probably why I am not personally a libertarian--government may not be perfect, but big business doesn't need more freedom to collect information and control people through consumerism, a subscription economy, wealth stratification, etc.

Just my opinion. :-)

I see from your profile you're an Ohio res, as am I (read up on gun rights in Ohio, it's a pretty liberal state for gun owners).

nathanaloysiusbash (author)  gmoon2 years ago

Yep, Findlay, Oh. Lived in Columbus for 4 or 5 years. Likely will move back there or to Cincinnati. I, like you, am not a fan of big business which takes a big skim off the top for the executives ang gives and less down the ladder to people working for the same company. Lets say for example a restaurant. Restaurants especially. Just because you're working a job does not mean you are contributing to society.For example, I worked at a Chipotle for a year. Lunch rush would come and wed be swamped serving burritos to the businesspeople from downtown offices for the 2 to 3 hours. Meanwhile the workers at Chipotle are living paycheck to paycheck to make burritos for people who could make their own burrito at home and bring it to work with them, thereby saving fuel an generating less trash from disposable take out containers. Just one example of people slaving away in jobs they dont like for low wages working for business. If a society is as healthy as its individual members I would say there are many jobs out there that detract from society rather than contribute to it.

I'm not completely following you, regarding the "nature" of the restaurant business...really the service industry. AFA it being nonessential, a huge portion of the consumer economy isn't essential. If people only bought the essentials, there wouldn't be many jobs.

But it's somewhat ridiculous when the workers in a whole sector of the economy (service industry) don't make enough to even cover those essentials. Thanks to the decoupling of wages from productivity back in the late 70's (in the USA, anyways) -- somebody is making way more money, but not the average person.

And the people who would benefit the most from organized labor, now believe it's a root cause of the US's economic woes. Funny really -- organized labor is such a small portion of the US labor market presently. But get enough people to believe...

Ah, well. Enough economics / politics. Once-upon-a-time, discussions like this were very common on I'bles. But they can develop into full-fledged flame wars...

I live a couple hours to the east. But I do have a good friend who teaches at Ohio Northern Univ, a little ways outside Findlay.

nathanaloysiusbash (author)  gmoon2 years ago

My sister went to ONU to study electrical.

nathanaloysiusbash (author)  gmoon2 years ago

Yeah I like to start discussions in the instructable forums. There seems to be less backlash discussing ideas and opinions here than when I was on Facebook. Facebook's not really for that, peoples actual social lives are too much affected by what they say on facebook so you pretty much have to just be the mayor, kiss babies, shake hands, share pictures of your pets, your kids, what you ate for dinner, etc. Actually speaking about what you believe instantly alienates you from people who don't believe the same way. Instructable is kind of a happy medium between Facebook and Yahoo answers. With Facebook people are way too polite. With Yahoo answers people are way too rude. It's not as easy to start over with your instructables account as it is with a Yahoo account. Thus people keep themselves in check a little more I think. I know I do.

Hmm, freedom is all good and fine but I think some americans overdue it with their needs for it.

I don't want to argue about all of it, just the weapons part:

The wild west is over, we no longer need go hunting every week to survive and we have kids that often don't think straight.

Therefor I am happy if people with a clean record and good behavior are allowed to have a rifle or hand gun.

But not to carry them around openly, get automatic weapons or .50cal's.

The world evolved and the safety of others is now valued in most ports of it.

Running around with a loaded gun does not make anyone more safe...

How many shooting have there been in last 10 years caused by people with easy access to a rifle or hand gun?

How many children lost their lifes?

Yes, some might argue if the other kids had guns too they could have shot the killer before it got out of control - wild west all over again?

Americans are gun nuts, which in one I respect due to the way the country was formed but it also shows the constant tendecy for violence :(

kelseymh2 years ago

Since the local community (that means YOU!) has to provide all of the services and support required when there is a large group gathering (water, trash, security, landscaping, traffic control, and so on) it is not unreasonable to expect the gathering group to notify and perhaps even pay for some of those services. That's what permits are about. They don't prevent gathering, they allow for reasonable safety.

I'm assuming that you have no experience with membership in a well-regulated militia.

Pursuit of happiness is not, and never was, part of the Constitution. If you're really going to try to complain about our system of government, the least you could do is learn about it.

This is a new company record! If it wouldn't be such a waste of a damn-fine enlisted man I'd recommend you for OCS! You are gonna be a general someday, Gump, now disassemble your weapon and continue!

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