We need more people

I know this forum is old but...
Like I said to GoodHart: I'm not sure about all the other vegetarians in this group, but I'm not actually against killing animals, I'm against the meat industry - animals that never see daylight and spend their entire lives crammed into a cage, only to be killed and repackaged. I'm against people having no clue about what its actually like and not caring either.
The point I'm trying to make is vegetarianism for me doesn't mean not killing or hurting animals, it means going back to the way it would be naturally; ie people kill their own food or for their family.
Obviously this isn't very feasible in todays overpopulated world, where everyone depends on conveniently packaged and delivered meat, that is why I choose not to eat it. 
Please don't say 'but we evolved to be that way'. Perahaps we have evolved to be that way. That's exactly my point; I'm against evolving into an ignorant person that doesn't know what nature means, other than something to be exploited/ruined for humankind's benefit. 
I think it's very ignorant of you to call animals a 'material'. They are our fellows beings, and we must treat them with respect.    

Now, the other reason vegetarian groups attract relatively few members is because they also attract the knee-jerk over-the-top ignorant answer as well. Should I invoke Godwin's Law now and get it over with? Rape and murder has never been a majority activity, and has never been a behaviour selected for by evolution. Instead, there are strong evolutionary pressures to remove those behaviours from any genetic influence. Being omnivorous, though, has had major benefits to our species. Large brains and hands capable of making and using tools, for instance. Basically - you are able to sit there and get carried away about a matter of choice because your ancestors ate as much meat as they could get their hands on, not because your ancestors forced themselves on women and murdered their men.

Well said.

I do my best - this is an important place for me - as do a lot of other people.

I was trying to rationalise the lack of members in your group, considering the audience you were playing to.

_{Then you got kind of carried away...}

And here you go again. I request we stop this madness.

...we also evolved by raping women and killing other humans

I hope you are speaking for yourself only. I personally feel I would never have any cause to do harm to anyone of my own species. Other species are food however, just as with most carnivores, or omnivores.

but it is no longer neccesary.

Actually, for the health and mental well-being of most persons, eating meat is an absolute necessity (i.e. it is necessary for them). I don't doubt that a diet consisting of a LOT of vegetables, is VERY healthy, but it not consistent with our palate. What one is deprived of, can be devastating to one's personality.

I know that anyone that denies me the wide variety of types of food stuffs available...including insects, would meet with deserved opposition. But, I always listen to reasonable discussion. Telling me what I can and can not do, however; is a bit beyond the amount of power I wish to give anyone. I am now in my 50's and my parent, you are not. ;-)

I once, smoked.....back then (pre-2002), I would become sick, oh once every 5 years or so). I haven't had the flu since I quit smoking. I am a bit overweight, and don't get a whole lot of exercise, which is my fault. For having had a double bypass, I am healthier then the docs say I should be. As I said in another post, I have no qualms with speaking out about how healthy it is to eat less meat and more veggies, but that doesn't mean I will feel good about stopping altogether. My personal psychological well being would become jeopardized under such a stipulation.
As I mentioned below in my answer to Binary Guy, the necessity comes in how we perceive it. For instance, the docs told me NO MORE CHEESE, it clogs my arteries. I replied....you can take away nearly ANY fatty substance, but I am NOT giving up cheese. I will cut WAY back on it, but I love cheese way too much. It was easier to quit smoking then to it would be for me to give up cheese (I didn't really LIKE to smoke anyways).
BTW: I would never EVER ask anyone to respect me because of my age.....respect is earned through experiencing the other person. I just didn't feel like being told what I like, and what I should do and so I brought up the age to explain why ;-)

My heart doctor has told me two things, one of them you mention above: Maybe, start by cutting back red meat consumption to about one meal a week,
and that, I have done. Once, no more then twice a week, for my heart's sake. The second thing he told me is to make it up using lean cuts of chicken, and turkey. This too, I have done.....but even here one must be careful....some lean cuts of beef are better for you then some not so lean cuts of turkey or chicken. So, I am already very much into having to read every label and make sure I am eating right. Nevertheless, I have been cautioned against any fad diets that limit my vitamin intake, especially vitamin B¹² as I get older and have a more difficult time absorbing vitamins from tougher fibrous foods (like stalk and root veggies).
All in all, as I mentioned in another place, I can not see myself denying myself the taste of something new just because it belongs to a food group that someone else doesn't like. But I dare say I do better with more veggies than a lot of non-vegetarian people do ;-)

for humans today eating meat is about as necessary as lighting the home with candles. it is necessary for them only to let them say i eat meat like a normal person by their definition of normal. nutritionally meat can be entirely replaced by vegetarian foods which are only healthier humanity might have needed meat in the past. today the condiotion is 180 opposite. humanity needs to stop eating meat to survive why ? our world is in ecological crysis. meat industry needs huge area of fields to grow (veg !) stuff to feed the animals. of this stuff the absolute most turns into poo and unused parts of dead bodies (both in quantities that are challenge even to mother nature to do something with). atmost few percents are turned into usefull food for humans. thats A MEGA WASTE. if humans ate veg food only a fraction of the existing fields could feed everyone it feeds now + solve ALL hunger problems in the third world. all the other area could be converted back to rain forests and help the earth too it makes orders of magnitude more effect than changing lightbulbs and insulating. we need to do that if we simply want to keep life on planet earth in existence

for humans today eating meat is about as necessary as lighting the home with candles.
You misunderstand what I meant by necessary...a good portion of the population would freak, if you took away their car, home (and gave them a tent), children, or their meat. For most of the population, it is psychologically needed. These things CAN be changed, but they can not be forced. Let's face it, you will not be able to influence the majority of people out there. So, instead of trying to change the unchangeable, work on those things that actually NEED changing. As grandma would say, you catch many more flies with honey then with vinegar. You can get a whole lot more to rally behind the cause of animal treatment, and waste, then you can get to stop partaking of food. I am just trying to be realistic, you know?

xkcd = not a scientific source

I have, in a way. I have never seen flies stuck i.e. caught in vinegar. But if they land on a dish of honey, they rarely lift off again....despite their having landed on a nearly endless source of energy. It acts a lot like flypaper. On vinegar, they float on it until they fly away.

I eat lots of veggies. :-) As for the rest, I was just wasn't sure if that was meant to be a serious argument. I've read them all too - they are funny, aren't they? I just generally don't trust cartoonists, even though every time I've checked Mr. Munroe has been on the up and up with us. :-)

if you are too realistic you won't get anything fly !

Lets just say you draw a more co-operative crowd by being positive then by being negative ;-)

Let's put it another way.....the original cry was why aren't there more members....; the reality is, there aren't anymore that want to go that route, and argumentation will not change it.

I have to balance my diet, but I can't afford to be too exclusive, nor can I be held responsible for the actions of others, and the last part is that I don't want to give up on the miriad of flavors that I have and have yet to experience.
BTW: taste is more then the taste buds, it is smell, touch, texture, etc. take away one (boy do I know this is true), and the dish can taste ruined.

I once turned a white sauce into a gray sauce by blending in (yes, with a blender) the mushrooms instead of placing them on top of the dish I was making.....GRAY sauce despite not having a different flavor (since the mushrooms were going to be cooked into it anyways) made it taste differently. (my wife wouldn't touch it....)

there is difference between

car home children <----------------> meat (and let me add candles)

people freak out easily. officer karl explaind around here why. they live in their happy bubble and dont want to change everything that (to them) means bursting it

changing animal treatment is made not as much for the animals but for those people - so they will feel more comfortable in their bubble (after seeing a youtube link some1 sent them and cursing him all day later). in fact it'll have the exact opposite effect than wanted on the animals. animals will continue to suffer (an unnoticable tiny bit of their dreadful life less) but the actual solution (people going vegs) will be frozen down noticably cause of those unnoticable improvements in animal wellfare

changing animal treatment does not affect the ecology at all. fields are still grown to turn into poo. humans in the 3rd world are starving to death. rain forests are in crysis. all that cause some people want to have dead pokemons for dinner to feel normal with. thats what really freaking out

bursting the bubble (and going veggie) IS the only real solution to the problem. but yea pople dont like to burst bubbles. THAT is the real problem

to burst bubble like that we need to introduce and present the real world outside the bubble. you are right in that a hammer won't work here. therefore the challenge is how to burst the bubble without force. to make people understand the difference between the psychological feeling that they are ok cause they eat meat and a planet standing on the edge of cliff and real physical suffer and death of animals and humans

hold on. that was only the beginning

I lived with and around farmers, I do not live in a happy bubble, so my explanation, using myself as a reference point, can't be argued with that way.

humans in the 3rd world are starving to death

as governments pay farmers to NOT use all their potential fields for crop,.,been there understand all that. An overstocking of crops causes deflation and the farmers don't make enough to personally give it away to those countries....so the economy of farming is kept to a minimum for the sake of the rich. This has nothing to do with raising a steer for meat or a swine for bacon.

You might say that, for those that are violently oppose to either side, they BOTH live in their own little worlds. Both sides have their misconceptions about reality, about what is really going on, about the psychology of the whole situation, and about what can really be done (and the reality is, you will not be changing most of the USA into vegetarians). One fellow I know from Texas, for instance, wrote to me about REAL Texas chili: he said something like chili with BEANS in it? REAL chili doesn't have beans in it (which means, chili has meat in it, period). This is just a minor example, but the attitude is prevalent.
I personally am not arguing against vegetarians nor their lifestyle, I do think that, at least leaning in the direction is healthy, BUT, I don't want my life to be limited either, and that includes my taste buds :-)

Been there, done that, saw lives nearly destroyed from being forced to do something they could not abide by.....the shock was so great to one person their immune system went on the warpath.

I suppose, if I were to give you some advice, I would say, try NOT to sound preachy, like the h3ll fire and brimstone preachers, and calmly inform those willing to listen. Once you get a greater audience, you may have more force behind you, but right now, the majority will feel comfortable where it is at, and forcefulness will only isolate you all the more.

One source for my post above is http://reason.tv/video/show/647.html The problem with grains is that we, in the USA, already consume way to much of it. We need to increase our eating of vegetables from green leafies (spinach, etc, which I LOVE) to tomatoes and red/yellow peppers, etc.

BTW: if you get a chance, there was a show on tv I saw recently that showed all the things we get from corn now, other then food for ourselves and our animals....it was fascinating....I can't remember the name of it, but I THINK it was on the Discovery channel

i see no reason why not to go veg except for a bubble (which may be happy bubble or just belief that vegs are limiting themselfes) and the way farm economics are working (and maybe medical conditions for some individuals) i am not economist. but i understand a bit in bubbles what i understand is partially what you said - that force won't work and will only make anti reaction. another thing (and here i disagree with you) is that you cant estimate your success in bursting bubbles. i cant say that i am able to convert most americans to go veg. you cant say that i cant do that either with that understood there is only 1 way to go - do my best without employing a hammer and accept the results i can reach. let alone veg stuff. this way is the most correct way in life in general

problem is different but similar. people live in a movie and dont understand that they are just humans with lot of positive power that wants to get realized. realized and not blocked by some superstitions

we'd live in a whole another world if everyone was following one simple rule be and let be

How far is that taken? be and let be. How about the swarm of flies that has taken up residence in the kitchen? The mice that live in the walls of most domiciles. The roaches that can get into homes without them being very dirty? All living beings, or is it just those beings that one chooses to let be.

And let me forgo some of the arguments right away; sometimes it is impossible to use human traps on mice, most times one can not capture roaches, flies, etc. and so they are either lived with or eradicated.

Also, I am not trying to be ignorant here, I am trying to understand.....since I have never gotten an acceptable answer to these questions.

Is it ok to kill if it threatens your life or well being?

I know this forum is old but to answer your question...
I'm not sure about all the other vegetarians in this group, but I'm not against actually killing animals, I'm against the meat industry - animals that never see daylight and spend their entire lives crammed into a cage, only to be killed and repackaged. I'm against people having no clue about what its actually like and not caring either. 
The point I'm trying to make is vegetarianism for me doesn't mean not killing or hurting animals, it means going back to the way it would be naturally; ie people kill their own food or for their family.
Obviously this isn't very feasible in todays overpopulated world, where everyone depends on conveniently packaged and delivered meat, that is why I choose not to eat it.   
So to answer your question about bugs, yes, I would quite happily try to get rid of them using natural methods aka whacking them or using garlic.

Indeed, but those that proclaim to be vegan, which is normally just a vegetarian with an attitude ;-) that is, they feel superior in that they do not want to harm any life form.....but happily use mouth wash to kill germs, swat flies, cook foods (destroying good and bad germs), feed their carnivorous animals veggies, when neither their teeth nor digestive systems are made for it, and etc. It is those that I have issue with, not sensible people like you or I. :-)

in addition to be and let be you should have a head. in second thought you cant be if you dont allready have one we dont have mice but used to have a lot of ledians in the summer my parents believe that the way to deal with them is to spray them with whatever advertised on tv. it does not work. the population is too huge to be affected. us the humans and our planet are affected more what works very well is going thru the home with a window sealant gun and injecting it into every tiny crack where walls meet floor etc. it leaves the ledians outside. it solves the problem for years and not for one day. and is a perfect example of live and let live

it does not work. the population is too huge to be affected.

I believe a line from Black Moon fits here...."they don't change, they just become immune...."

I just mean that, if it is cruelty to an animal that is the problem, then one has to be more or less concerned about the mice / rats that eat certain poisons, and dehydrate to death by a painful process.

Mice and rats can chew through about 1 to 2 inches of concrete, and get through a hole they make the size of a quarter.

Again, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am interested since, it is nearly impossible to keep animals (including bugs) outside. Are you just concerned about the survival of animals? Or also about how they are treated? Does a fly hanging on flypaper make you cringe because it dies by starvation? (it bothers me to some extent...I try to catch them and release them).

everyhing done by humans to animals which is harmfull to the animals is bad it is not ok to do if there is viable other solution

Again, how far is that taken? Do germs count? They are living creatures (viruses are questionable, but germs are definitely living).

An animal can be described as those living things that are not plants. As far as the senses are concerned, that is the argument that most fish and seafood eaters will use; they don't have a well developed type of nervous system, and so do not feel pain; especially crustacea. Again, I am not arguing, but trying to define the line and whether it is a moral line, or just arbitrary and / or convenient.

Ok, I cede that point so as not to become argumentative :-) Still there are animals with little or no nervous system and can not feel pain (no more than our own brains do not transmit pain, if cut into). So, is it just because they feel no pain then? Shellfish for instance.

can you apply this to plants ? hint : i do eat plants

If so, we would have nothing to sustain us. We only eat plants and meat as a whole. So that is really my question, is there a line of demarcation? And why draw the line there? Why are some animals slaughtered without a care (germs, both good ones and bad ones) and others not? If we speak of living, rather then "animal life" then we enter a whole new world. If one works backwards from Humans and down the line of life, what makes one living thing better than another? Is it sentience? Is it having legs, and a torso? (that leaves out jellyfish and germs) One must morally either accept all (non-poisonous) life as a food source, or they could end up in the paradox of being unable to eat anything. OR, they must make concessions along the way, excuses for harming some animals and not others.

They are few and far in between (yes, I have heard of them)....I have wondered why they haven't grown much in number, but maybe they don't live long enough? :-)

i'd agree with officer karl in where to put the line animals who can feel that we kill or make them pain animals (or whatever else) who can't feel that point for thought - can you apply this to your computer ? it is not living at all. and yet it can in some sense feel when you are bad to it and misbehave as result. stuff like throwing it in a tight and dusty ~~factory farm~~ corner under your desk where it accumulates ~~dirt~~ dust and ~~suffocates~~ overheats untill it ~~gets ill~~ starts to malfunction from that. or like ~~letting it out in bad weater~~ connecting to internet without ~~warm clothes~~ firewall

you could in a much more accurate sense, apply this to some crystalline substances....

pika ?

Some real crystals react in very odd ways to pressure and stress...some in a reversible plastistic way, and some with irreversible plasticity.

does not any meterial deform from stress ? (be it elastic or not or just crack)

I have a few books on it at home, here is another good source: http://www.amazon.com/Crystalline-Plasticity-Metamorphic-Selected-Geological/dp/0471637912

So animals like shell fish, and many other crustacea, with no nervous system, they are ok because they feel no pain?

in theory yep then allthough i'd still give them exception for reasons that won't be explained

Ok, as long as I know that you have your reasons, I will not needle or try to force them from you :-)

Sorry, I don't wish to argue, but I had this same conversation concerning infinities with someone......Eat only veggies, limited to veggies only,
eat veggies and meat, not limited to veggies only. It is limiting to limit one's self ot veggies only. Sorry, that is reality.. I have such a wide range of tastes that I have experienced that can not be gotten with vegetation only. If you do not face that as a fact, you live in your own veggie bubble ;-)

I can say that you can't convert most people because we as humans are not convertibles.. We CAN convert ourselves however. But, as the old saying goes, no one can make a fool out of me without my permission. Just as I will not be converted, in either direction, without my express acceptance and work, irrespective of things others say. That is the position of a realist.

Again, I emphasize that I am not arguing against vegetarianism so much as getting you to do as you say and not hide your head in the sand either. This is a two way street here.....and eating more veggies is absolutely much more healthy than mostly meats......sadly, the vegetation most people eat consist of potatoes (chips) and grains (most of our carbohydrate intake), which is making us fat (through increased storage of extra calories). Too MUCH of our diet consists of the wrong types of vegetation.

As one dietitian put it.....tis easy, go for the brightly colored veggies and the dark and bright GREEN ones too, to add to your diet.

BTW: if you think that eating veggies only is not limiting, show me a recipe that is veggie only, that tastes like well (but not over) cooked calamari. :-) Or perhaps, escargot, or eel, or frogs legs.

I am simply trying to express myself more completely....I am trying not to nitpick _{my apologies if I have}.

Remember, taste is more then just the taste buds, it is smell, sight, texture, touch, and appearance, to name a few. ;-)

Right, understood. I have a bad habit of needing to explain myself, and then needing to explain why I am explaining myself :-)

if you did not notice yet i am not trying to convert you. i hold on this topic only cause of all the stuff you have to say and i am tempted to read eating veggies only is limiting yourself to veggies only. thats plain logic i still see eating meat as the limit - on my own experience. i am vegan (no milk / eggs either) for about 2 years. before going veg i knew only few big taste groups - meat milk vegies spudz soup bread. each seemed as a monotonous group by itself. some time after going veg i discovered that the groups veg and soup (now veg soup only) are not monotonous anymore. they turned to a lot of different tastes that satisfy me. i see meat and milk as what limited me back then from feeling the real taste in vegetables - a bit like when there is loud noise around you cant hear the silent things

This is what I LOVE about French cuisine......it is an orchestration of light flavors....a LITTLE of this, and a LITTLE of that....it is where raspberry sauce meets horseradish and blend and make a taste that just zooms to the stars....If we cooked more like they do in some of these other countries, where everything is expensive, and so to taste it, you have to have a little of a lot of things.

I see you miss my point......I enjoy ALL of the things you eat, plus many more. I am not limited to just vegetables, but have a variety of choice to goes from Yeast to bear. And the infinite number of possibilities in the combination of all of that. Just today, I ate out at an Indian style restaurant and had only veggie salads, with mango and hot pepper sauces, lamb curry, and vindaloo, chicken tandoori, cabbage masala, etc. I loved it all. The veggie dishes, and the others also.

Well just made the point to our binary friend that I can experience so many more tastes by including all things, than I can if I eliminate some tastes. This means I would be unwilling to give up tasting new things, whether they be animal or veggie or fruit or fungus.

you want to enjoy what you eat. deep inside all you want is to enjoy so you either enjoy a wider veriety of foods or enjoy to the same extent thinner variety of foods any difference then ? as in - if the thinner variety satisfies than what else matters ? i dont say it applies to everyone but i enjoy the thinner variety more than i enjoyed wider variety before

you want to enjoy what you eat. deep inside all you want is to enjoy

And I do enjoy new things too. Thus a few years ago, I tried Calamari (not fried, anything FRIED is ruined), and loved it....I haven't been able to find a place that makes it correctly since.....sweetbreads, are something I had never had, and aobut 12 years ago, I had the opportunity to same them, along with escargot. I get bored with the Burger n fries mentality of the world. We are one of the few creatures on earth that can demonstrate the ability to enjoy eating as much as eat for survival (although, I really must cut back on the quantities).

If you are satisfied with what you have open to you, more power to you, it is just that when I started to cook French cuisine about 25 years ago, I opened a world of tastes, smells and textures to my senses that I can no longer turn off. Still, as I wrote elsewhere in this thread, I have to cut back on red meats, for my heart's sake, and as I have been advised to substitute lean turkey instead of the beef, I have been able to do that much. The up and coming fowls are ostrich and emu, which are leaner even then turkey is.

Thanks.....although i can not think of a time I cooked with no meat, I do not make it the main portion of any meal at anytime...I really have to be careful to balance things so I go end up having another bypass done :-)

I take that back, I have had a few meals at home where I tried veggie burgers and such (vegan hot dogs & vegan cheese are even grosser then meat hot dogs). I prefer things to be less processed then those pre-made burgers though.

a world of tastes can exist in anywhere. veg food is not only raw vegz (allthough what i like the most are raw vegz / fruitz straight from the tree) to feel it i needed to remove the source of loud noise that blocked it - in my example meat now i am really open to enjoy new veg stuff but i have better things to enjoy than food anyway :) you can discover everywhere

a world of tastes can exist in anywhere.

I acknowledge that, but I also like tastes not included in the veggie domain :-)

it does. look at what goodhart allready said. some more copy paste from me and we could get enough stuff to make The Goodhart Cookbook

I think he's already been quite vocal about that...if you go through his comments he goes into quite a bit of detail on why he's vegetarian, and why you should be, too. And why you stink if you aren't.

I think that's why there aren't many people in your group. People here want hard evidence, not emotional appeal.

My point is that you do not offer it, but instead "try to make me feel guilty". And that's why you get adverse reactions.

No, and any leanings I had towards it previously were sort of ruined by all of this, to be perfectly honest.

Okay, thank you. And I'd like to add I don't mind at all you trying to change my mind - if you truly believe I and/or the world would be benefited by doing or not doing a certain thing, you would be irresponsible not to! - but I appreciate it more and am more likely to respond when people appeal to my head, not my heart, and also respect my right to disagree/ hold a different opinion. Yes, I like that xkcd (try /404 for a funny one ;). Quite true, really.