If you're an audiofile purist, don't read any further. What follows is not for the faint of heart and beyond anything you've seen before. If you decide to continue, please don't comment about how you think it will ruin records until after you try it. Then, if you still feel my method is flawed, I'd love to read your critique.
If you follow my instructions, you'll have to work hard to screw things up. It's really not that scary once you get into it.
I've spent an entire career designing, developing and patenting metal, engineered plastic and vinyl products. I know plastics, their strengths and weaknesses. I also know how to fix things. This is one of those fixes.
I'm also not responsible for any disasters that might befall you. If you try this and somehow manage to screw it up, don't blame me. Use caution and common sense. It works for me and that's all I can attest to.
That being said... Let's begin:
Hopefully, most records you pick up at yard sales, Goodwill and flea markets can be brought back to new using standard cleaning methods. This is only for those discs that still have elevated levels of pops and clicks due to physical damage due to accident, neglect or abuse.
The record in the first photo is one such case. When I pulled it from the jacket, I could see immediately it had gone through a rough life. Under the microscope, the grooves were embedded with crud and the lands (the space between the grooves) showed signs of extreme wear with hundreds of vinyl "deflections" along the edges of the grooves.
If you follow my instructions, you'll have to work hard to screw things up. It's really not that scary once you get into it.
I've spent an entire career designing, developing and patenting metal, engineered plastic and vinyl products. I know plastics, their strengths and weaknesses. I also know how to fix things. This is one of those fixes.
I'm also not responsible for any disasters that might befall you. If you try this and somehow manage to screw it up, don't blame me. Use caution and common sense. It works for me and that's all I can attest to.
That being said... Let's begin:
Hopefully, most records you pick up at yard sales, Goodwill and flea markets can be brought back to new using standard cleaning methods. This is only for those discs that still have elevated levels of pops and clicks due to physical damage due to accident, neglect or abuse.
The record in the first photo is one such case. When I pulled it from the jacket, I could see immediately it had gone through a rough life. Under the microscope, the grooves were embedded with crud and the lands (the space between the grooves) showed signs of extreme wear with hundreds of vinyl "deflections" along the edges of the grooves.
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Signing UpStep 1: How Records Get Damaged
Dirty records can be cleaned, but damaged records will still sound terrible no matter how much you clean them. The first image is a microscopic view of a scratch across Skeeter Davis' "End Of The World"... Appropos for 2012, don't you think?. When a record player gets bumped or someone gets careless, the needle skips crosswise over the grooves, literally carving a path through the soft vinyl.
The vinyl being cut away has to go somewhere. Some of it ends up on the needle, some of it ends up as crud at the bottom of the groove and some of it is pushed out of the way, piled up like snow in front of a plow. It's pushed above the surface of the lands and the side walls of the grooves. This is what causes the "tick, tick, tick" you hear after a record has been scratched. The needle is bumping into these deformations and serenades you with it's rhythmic beat a little over 33 times a minute.
The second microscopic image shows a smaller scratch as well, but it also shows many deformations on the edges and sides of the grooves. Back when this album was popular, tone arms and needles were both heavy and large. As they ran through the grooves, the needle would build up up heat, softening the plastic, making the vinyl more prone to damage. A large needle can't fit all the way into the groove, so it rests in part, on the outside edges of the groove.
The edge is the weakest part of the groove, so when a needle vibrates back and forth, it slams against the warm edge, wearing it away, pushing and deflecting vinyl into small mounds above the record surface. The vinyl that's pushed up and out, leaves a pocket behind, and the edge eventually becomes lined with pits and piles of vinyl. The edge begins to take on a new shape as the needle wears away at it, distorting the sound as well as adding pops, clicks and ticks.
Today, needles are smaller, lighter and go deeper into the groove where the vinyl of these old records is still virgin. With a good cleaning, the sound will be rich and pure... Unless your record is still making popping sounds, has visible scratches and glitters like a field of diamonds under a microscope.
If this is the case, chances are, it could use a good sanding.
The vinyl being cut away has to go somewhere. Some of it ends up on the needle, some of it ends up as crud at the bottom of the groove and some of it is pushed out of the way, piled up like snow in front of a plow. It's pushed above the surface of the lands and the side walls of the grooves. This is what causes the "tick, tick, tick" you hear after a record has been scratched. The needle is bumping into these deformations and serenades you with it's rhythmic beat a little over 33 times a minute.
The second microscopic image shows a smaller scratch as well, but it also shows many deformations on the edges and sides of the grooves. Back when this album was popular, tone arms and needles were both heavy and large. As they ran through the grooves, the needle would build up up heat, softening the plastic, making the vinyl more prone to damage. A large needle can't fit all the way into the groove, so it rests in part, on the outside edges of the groove.
The edge is the weakest part of the groove, so when a needle vibrates back and forth, it slams against the warm edge, wearing it away, pushing and deflecting vinyl into small mounds above the record surface. The vinyl that's pushed up and out, leaves a pocket behind, and the edge eventually becomes lined with pits and piles of vinyl. The edge begins to take on a new shape as the needle wears away at it, distorting the sound as well as adding pops, clicks and ticks.
Today, needles are smaller, lighter and go deeper into the groove where the vinyl of these old records is still virgin. With a good cleaning, the sound will be rich and pure... Unless your record is still making popping sounds, has visible scratches and glitters like a field of diamonds under a microscope.
If this is the case, chances are, it could use a good sanding.
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Now, if the damage is a scratch, and you hear it over and over, then sanding may work, but I have 2 caveats for you:
1. If the scratch is deep, you won't get all of it out. Sanding is a compromise between hearing the clicks and pops and the sound quality. Sanding records as I describe in my Instructables will not hurt sound quality one bit, but once you begin to significantly reduce the depth of the groove, the bass will suffer and your music will begin to sound like MP3s on cheap speakers.
2. If your damage isn't scratch related, but you dulled the finish of your album, then sanding will only make it worse. A sanded album will never have the high gloss of a pristine record. What sanding does is sacrifice the surface sheen in order to remove the rough edges of the grooves. Messed up edges are the culprit for 90% of the clicks and pops that remain even after cleaning.
That being said, I've never ruined a record by sanding it's surface (other than those I used for destructive limit tests). I've also improved the sound quality of every record I've sanded, but when scratches go very deep, it becomes a choice between the quality of the sound and the elimination of the pop.
Oh, and one more suggestion: If the damage is only one scratch, I would lightly sand the area around it by hand. There's no need to sand the entire record for a single scratch.
Good luck. I hope my ideas can help you to enjoy your music.
I order two pieces of 1500, 2000 and 2500 grit of sand paper and ordered a 40x magnifying-glass. I will start with 1500 for the first time and maybe finish with 2500 to keep a better shine on the record, but that is something I have to try. Normally when I buy vinyl, the first thing I will do is wash it and put it in new good jackets. I am really looking forward to test the sand procedure, I will first try it on old vinyl.
I will post an update once I have results.
I was reading your recovering methods with a lot of interest because I have a record that has a pretty scratch on it, that I would like to try to repair. The scratch is vertical on the record (so I mean from the inside (label) to the outside) but cause a pop each time the needle is hitting the scratch (see image).
Since there are no postings here lately I was wondering if you have any new good/bad experiences lately? Maybe with 2000 or 3000 grit sandpaper? If I understand correctly, the nice polish shine of the record is gone at the place where you sand it? Is it possible to get it back somehow?
If I read correctly, this is the short summary for cleaning records:
1. Good cleaning of the record (washing)
2. Try it, if the sound is ok, do nothing more. If there are pops/cracks on places where also a scratch is located, try to sand them. After sanding, wash them again.
3. If sound is ok, do nothing more. If sound is not ok, and there are still cracks during listening, but not only on the places where there is a scratch, try to deep clean, for example with glue.
Thanks and keep up the good work!
As far as I know, I'm the only person who's ever proposed and promoted the wet sanding of vinyl. It takes nerve to attack a record, so I doubt that many, if any, others have actually tried it.
The scratch on your album looks serious, with the inner part being the worse. If it goes very deep, you may not be happy with the results of sanding, though any sanding you do would most likely reduce the loudness of the pop. The run-out looks horrific, but the recording itself doesn't look as bad. if that's true, sanding may be an option. I don't see individual songs, so I'm guessing this is classical, or something like "Thick as a Brick" or other continuous piece. Saving a couple of songs at the outer edge where the damage is lightest doesn't look like an option. If the scratch is too deep sanding it out may begin to impact on the sound. If that's the case, it may be time to look for a replacement album.
Here's what I know... I hope it helps:
• There isn't any data on the subject other than that what's been presented in my Instructables.
• I have experimented on what over-sanding can do. It takes an incredible amount of sanding to ruin a record.
• But if your scratch is really deep and much of the track wall is removed, the sound will suffer. The first to go will be the bass, then other low frequencies, moving up the scale as more and more vinyl is removed. With enough material removed, the record will sound like an early Edison cylinder recording.
• Theoretically, if you keep your sanding to an extremely narrow area around the scratch, deep sanding would only distort the sound in the time it take the needle to move across the sanded part. The loss of sound, repeating over and over may or may not be as distracting as the sound of the deep scratch.
• On my records, I'll sand until the scratch disappears and the pop becomes indiscernible to my ears. Removing a thin layer of vinyl has caused no noticeable loss of sound quality.
• Another detail to note is the volume of the pop reduces gradually as the scratch is sanded down, so if your scratch is deep, you might be able to sand just enough to reach a reasonable compromise between loss of sound quality and reduced scratch noise.
• The finer the grit of paper you use, the less coarse the surface will look. Fine paper will also take longer to remove material, so balance your choices.
• As far as cleaning goes, your description seems about right. You should only need to deep clean your records once to get rid of that random static sound. After that, they'll be safely stored in jackets.
• As far as which method to use, wood glue is probably better at pulling out imbedded dirt and oil than power washing, but it isn't very efficient, requires lots of drying time and it uses up a ton of glue. I've only tried it on a couple of records and have decided to reserve it only for those finds that don't respond to power washing or blue tac.
I know I haven't answered all of your questions, but I hope I've been able to give you enough information to allow you to come to a decision. The first time you try sanding is the scariest. You may want to take an old record you don't care about and try that first. Just to prove to yourself it works.
Good questions and Good luck.
bfk
Whew! I'm exhausted :)
I've spent a few hours tonight reading several of your posts on cleaning records - very cool stuff, and I can't wait to try it out.
I spent a career designing vinyl products and can attest that the material isn't as delicate as the "experts" would lead us to believe. It is possible to restore the original sound from many "destroyed" records, and if your ultra-fine grit paper works, it may be possible to restore the pristine look as well.
I have a tendency to think outside the box on problem solving and have a number of instructibles that could be classified as unconventional.
If your'e into mp3 music as well as vinyl, I've recently published a couple of instructibles that show how to dramatically improve the sound of ear-buds.
I'll be adding them to my free iPhone app shortly, which can be downloaded at:
http://app.cat/apps/d575ee7f2f8150f541d0480ae5baa566/
(sorry, can't link in the comment section... It'll have to be cut & paste)
No ulterior motive. The app is an experiment, pretty geeky and a work in progress, but It should work on all smart devices. The good thing is, it automatically updates every time you open it, so all my latest instructibles will be on it and you don't have to do that stupid App Store update thingi :-)
I started to do the math myself (33 1/3 would create about 2300/3 revolutions - radius about 5 3/4 inches) but the reducing circle part of the equation kicked my behind... on the other hand there are smarter folks than myself out there - 2181 feet, 727 yards
(http://128.192.17.191/EMAT6680Fa06/Fox/EMAT%206600/Length%20of%20Phonograph%20Groove.htm)
Thank you very much.
J.
Scratches will make a loud "pop" or "tick" and you'll be able to see where they are. If you sanded the surface (and it's dull) and don't hear pops or ticks where the scratches are then you've done a good job of sanding them out, even if you can still see them.
Now, for your potato sound: Check out a couple of my other instructables:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Power-Wash-Your-Vinyl-Records/
A lot of garbage can sit in the bottom of the groove after being "melted" in by the needle, or held in by oils and decades old crud. It takes an expensive machine dragging thread through the groove, wood glue or a high pressure power wash to work that stuff out. I like the power wash route since it's cheap and doesn't take overnight for glue to dry.
I have a video of an album I brought into the house with that static, frying potato sound (maybe not as bad as yours), a deep scratch and lots of gunk in the groove. Washing got most of it out, but there was still some noise, even after several washes:
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Get-Perfect-Sound-From-Your-Ruined-Records/.
Pay special attention to the last step, where I use a citrus based product called "Goo Gone" and a static removing carbon fiber brush (just make sure you ground yourself out when you use it).
Also... Examine your needle. Years ago, I had a needle that had been bent sideways without my knowledge. All of a sudden, every record I played sounded exactly as you described. Terrible. As soon as I switched out the needle, all was good again.
Good luck and please keep me informed of your progress. And thanks for your comment. I love problem-solving.:)
I hope you get your album back.
I haven't tried razor blades yet, but anything that can smooth out the point where the flat land meets the 45º wall of the groove will eliminate the pops from scratches. The other difficult thing is getting the ground up dirt and vinyl out of the bottom of the groove. That's what the glue method can do.
I tried it and it works extremely well for pulling gunk out. I don't know if it's better than other methods I've detailed in my instructables, but it certainly takes the longest to do and uses up a lot of glue. Peeling it off is fun, so that kind of makes up for the negatives.
As far as repairing physical damage, that's not going to happen with glue. If you have a scratch before glueing, it will be there afterwards, albeit, a lot cleaner.
The only way to remove scratches that I'm aware is via mechanical means. Glass fiber pens are a good idea, but you have to be certain that they don't slip into and alter the groove. I use them for polishing hard to reach places in metal things, and I'd be nervous about using them on vinyl, but it sounds like you've already tried it so I'll probably do the same, just to see what happens.
I've found (in my experience) that Goo-Gone is as effective as wood glue in cleaning the grooves. It's quick and seems to leave the vinyl nice and slippery. A carbon fiber brush does wonders for static and those lint rollers pick up everything else. I Use those 3 items the most.
Thanks for your input. I don't have that many records, but I'm adding to my collection every week. I've only come across a couple that were too far gone for me to bring back. And I'm re-discovering jazz, as that seems to be the type of music that shows up most at GoodWill.
Second, I have a guess for the second question for the 6 month membership.
1,500 feet or about 500 meters.
Cheers!
Your gift pro membership is on it's way (I raised it to a full year... Hope you forgive me:). I need to find out how easy it is to give these things away, so if you would tell me how it goes, I'll appreciate it.
This has been fun... I'll have to come up with a more difficult question.
I've not tried it. What do you suppose would be a good temperature?
Many years ago when I was freshly married, I took one of the glass doors off of our brand new china cabinet to straighten out a sheet of plastic (not a record). I set up a heat lamp to shine on the area around the plastic.
I'd say the temperature of the glass got to about 250ºF before it shattered. The glass cooled very quickly. My new wife cooled immediately, and stayed that way for days.
Moral: If you heat glass, heat it evenly.
You may want to warm the record with a hair drier and then place it under the glass. My concern would be that if the glass were heated and it got too warm, it may be too difficult to retrieve the record before it got toasted.
I wouldn't let the record get any where near 200ºF. Before it melts, vinyl becomes soft. If that happens. even if its held flat, it may go out of round, which would be disastrous. No fixing that.
You only want the tension of the warp to relax. Little steps would be best. Unfortunately, I don't have any warped records to experiment with.
He heated the album with a hair dryer and then placed it between two sheets of glass. Well - any really smooth flat surface , but glass is that and easy to come by.
Better yet... If it works, make an Instructable. There seem to be a lot of people who are going back to vinyl and it would do well here.
Besides, the monthly challenge is all about music and that sounds (another pun, sorry) like it may be a winner... Nice prizes too.
Thanks for the update.
IIRC the only warped vinyl I have is a 45 that's quite distressed as well. I'll try to flatten it and then employ the other techniques to create a fully restored record.
I found the 45 - Four Tops ...Walk Away Renee. I've had it since - what - 1968?. I guarantee it's been stepped on, lied to, cheated on and treated like dirt :~)
Several things wrong with the proposed method of heating a record up with a hair dryer and then placing it between two pieces of glass to take out a warp.
1: The hair dryer doesn't get hot enough to bring the vinyl to a soft point. I had to switch to a heat gun to obtain plasticity.
2: Once warmed up to the point of plasticity, the disk deflected in a different way. It sort of flattened out at the edge nearest the warp, pulling it in toward the center.
3: The label is slightly proud of the disk. I should have anticipated this. It's why those stacking spindles work without damaging the recorded surface. Stack records up - at least 45's - and they don't touch each other other than at the label. When you put one between two sheets of glass the glass doesn't contact the disk surface.
Perhaps somebody else will have better luck with this method than I, but my attempt was a fail.
After your initial comment about using the glass, I did a quick search and came up with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZAScU584ZA
It looks like the same "press & heat" way of doing it, but may make allowances for the raised label (that never occurred to me either, so don't feel bad).
Keep up the experimentation. When you do meet with success (and you will), please keep the Instructables community informed. It seems to be a common issue.
Thanks for taking the time to write back with the bad news:(
I still have 2 patches left... Want to take a shot at the 2nd question?
I'm not using Elmers. I heard that Tightbond II is better because it has some elasticity. Lucky that's the glue I use. I'm anxious to see how well it works. I'll post a reply to this thread when I get the glue off and give it a spin.
I've peeled the glue and have to admit, I'm impressed with the results. I'd like to make some improvements to the process, but it cleaned the album up pretty well. I've posted before and after images elsewhere in the comments, but here's the goop and peel pics: