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Picture of Crib Modification for Accessibility
Parents with disabilities face numerous challenges when caring for a newborn. Besides the usual lack of sleep and anxiety about such a small and dependent life, much of the equipment for infants and children present substantial barriers for parents with disabilities. Changing tables are built for standing, bathtubs can take two (or more!) hands, and cribs require parents to have substantial flexibility and lifting strength.

My wife is a little person; when she's out of the house, she uses crutches and a lower-body brace which doesn't bend. Around the house, we keep most of our storage low to the ground, and our activities are on the floor. Dinners on a patterned rug with Japanese lacquered-table place settings are a great way to relax after work!

By the time we brought our newborn daughter home from the hospital, we had been thinking about the many adaptations needed to care for her. We consulted several times with Judi Rogers at Through The Looking Glass in Berkeley, a terrific organization with resources, advice and designs, and uniquely engineered equipment for parents with disabilities. Some things were easy: a mover's dolly to move stuff around; a padded changing pad on the floor; trays of supplies stored in our coffee table. But using a crib posed a challenge.

Cribs are manufactured according to strict standards designed for the safety of the child, not for universal access; the railings are all 2 or 3 feet off the floor, and a foot or more above the mattress. Because infants are left unattended in cribs overnight, they need to be built in such a way that the child cannot accidentally fall out of the crib or get any part of their body (especially the head and neck) trapped between components. The Consumer Product Safety Commission has publicly accessible explanations, as well as formal guidance for manufacturers.
 
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Step 1: Buy the Crib

Picture of Buy the Crib
I started with an IKEA "Leksvik" crib. At $159, it costs substantially less than many cribs (if you don't have an IKEA nearby, it is possible to order the crib for delivery, but that adds about $250 to the cost!) and it's made of solid wood. The frame which holds the mattress is bolted directly to the two end panels, as part of the structural support. That means the side rails are not essential for structural integrity. The crib also converts to a toddler bed, so the matteress can be placed much closer to the floor. Their "Hensvik" crib ($129) has the same structural design and dimensions.

Step 2: List of Materials

Picture of List of Materials
Most of the parts needed are available from McMaster-Carr Industrial Supply Co. with the part numbers shown. The "common hardware" is available in appropriately small quantities at any local hardware store. The total cost should be under $200, including the crib.

		McMaster-Carr			Item		Price	Drawer glides 26" full-extension	2712A9		$ 21.50/pair	Al tube 1/4" ID, 1/2" OD x 1/2" L	92510A765	   1.54	Angle bracket 11/16" x 1"		1556A26		   0.49	Quick-release T-handle pin (2")		92490A651	   5.62		Common Hardware			Quantity	3/4" square moulding			53 in	#8x1-1/2" wood screws			 9 ea	1/4" external retaining clip		 1 ea

Step 3: Moulding

Picture of Moulding
Cut the 53" length of 3/4" square moulding into two pieces, one 25" long and one 28" long. Drill three or four 3/16" clearance holes evenly spaced along each length of moulding, and countersink with a 5/16" bit.

Step 4: Angle Bracket for Locking Pin

Picture of Angle Bracket for Locking Pin
Modify the angle bracket by drilling out the #8 hole on the long arm with a 1/4" bit. You may want to do this in steps using increasing bits.

WARNING Be sure that you clamp the bracket firmly in a vise, and wear adequate eye protection -- the drill bit can grab the bracket and spin it without warning. If you have access to a machine shop with hole-cutting bits, that is much safer than using a drill.

Step 5: Assemble the Crib

Picture of Assemble the Crib
Assemble the crib normally, leaving one side rail off. This is the rail you'll be modifying into a sliding panel. For the version I built, the mattress support panels and base are mounted in their lowest position (as for the toddler bed).

Step 6: Attach the End-panel Moulding

Picture of Attach the End-panel Moulding
As you face the open side of the crib, attach the 28" length of moulding to the left end panel with painter's tape, so that it spans the full height of the side rail. Mark through each of the clearance holes onto the end panel. Remove the moulding, and drill 3/32" pilot holes at each of the marks, 1" deep. Attach the moulding using #8x1-1/2" wood screws.

Step 7: Prepare the Railing

Picture of Prepare the Railing
100_2192.jpg
It is easiest if you mark all of the cuts and holes on the side rail first. This will ensure, for example, that the drawer glides are properly aligned. I used pieces of blue painter's tape on the rails everywhere I needed to make a mark. Mark lines at 1" in from the outside end (the end with the screw and dowel holes) of the fixed half-rail, on the top and bottom bars. This is where the end of the fixed part of the drawer glide will be positioned on the rail.

Mark the top and bottom bars 25" from one end of the rail. The side rails have an odd number of vertical posts, so you can't cut exactly on center. Identify (with PostIt notes or tape, if you wish) the shorter 25" half as "moving" and the longer (27-1/4") half as "fixed."

Step 8: Mark Holes for the Drawer Glides (1)

Picture of Mark Holes for the Drawer Glides (1)
Extend one of the drawer glides and align the end with the plastic lock against the 1" mark you just made. You want the base part of the glide centered on the rail bar; the extension arm is slightly narrower than the bar, which can help with the centering. Mark the centers of the four large holes, two near one end and two near the other, on the base part of the glide. The two latter holes are visible through cutouts in the middle section of the glide. Repeat this process on both the top and bottom bars of the fixed half-rail.

In the picture, I've stuck brads into each of the hole positions to make them visible.

Step 9: Mark Holes for the Drawer Glides (2)

Picture of Mark Holes for the Drawer Glides (2)
Turn the whole rail over. With the drawer glide fully extended, align the tabbed end of the extension arm with the outside end (the end with screw and dowel holes) of the moving half-rail. Mark the centers of three holes on the extension arm: the "cam adjustment" at the end nearest the tab, the vertical slot at the center of the extension arm, and the small hole at the far (central) end of the extension arm visible through a cutout in the middle section. Repeat this process on both the top and bottom bars of the moving half-rail.

In the picture, I've stuck brads into each of the hole positions to make them visible.

Step 10: Cutting and Drilling the Railing

Picture of Cutting and Drilling the Railing
100_2198.jpg
The rail can now be cut in half and assembled with the drawer glides. Cut the two bars at the 25" marks. At each of the hole marks you made above, drill a 3/32" pilot hole into the bar 1/2" deep (wrap painter's tape around your drill bit as a guide, if you don't have a drill press). Remove all the tape pieces.

On the bottom bar of the fixed half-rail, drill out the hole nearest the cut end with a 3/16" bit. This hole will be used to anchor the fixed rail to the mattress support panel for stability. This is shown in the close-up.

Step 11: Attach the Drawer Glides to the Fixed Rail

Picture of Attach the Drawer Glides to the Fixed Rail
Open the glides, and attach them to the half rails using the included #8 screws (except the 3/16" hole in the bottom bar of the fixed half-rail). Leave all the screws slightly loose, except the ones at the outside ends. The glides will be able to pivot slightly around these, permitting you to align them.

Step 12: Attach the Moving Rail

Picture of Attach the Moving Rail
Once both half-rails have been attached to the drawer glides on the top and bottom bars, put it down with the fixed rail on the ground, and the moving rail facing up. Run the moving rail back and forth a few times. The two glides will be parallel when you can run the moving rail over its full travel.

Step 13: Finish the Rail Assembly

Picture of Finish the Rail Assembly
Slowly open the moving rail, and tighten each screw on the fixed rail as it is exposed. After tightening each pair of screws, run the moving rail over its full travel again to make sure things are still parallel. If not, loosen the screws you just worked on and realign. Repeat this procedure until you have all the pairs of screws tightened, so that the glide bases are firmly attached to the fixed rail.

Turn the assembly over, and tighten the screws on the drawer glide extension arms, from the far (uncut) end toward the center. The rail assembly should open and close smoothly, without binding. If not, loosen screws on the drawer glide bases (on the fixed rail) and realign them.

Insert two IKEA dowel pins into their holes on the end of the moving rail; use a bit of carpenter's glue in the holes to hold them in place.

Step 14: Attach the Angle Bracket

Picture of Attach the Angle Bracket
Attach the angle bracket to the bottom of the moving rail about 3" from the outside end, with a #8x3/4" wood screw (one of the extra screws from the drawer glides will be suitable). The long arm of the bracket should hang down from the inside edge, next to the drawer glide. The position of the angle bracket is not critical.

NOTE: After a couple of months of use, the angle bracket started to rotate out of alignment. I would suggest attaching it at this step with a blob of two-part epoxy before screwing it into place.

Step 15: Mount the Rail Assembly

Picture of Mount the Rail Assembly
Mount the rail assembly onto the open side of the crib. The fixed rail is attached to the right-hand end panel normally, with dowel pins and bolts at the top and bottom.

Step 16: Mind the Gap (1)

Picture of Mind the Gap (1)
Close the gap between the moving rail and the mattress using the 25" length of moulding. Align the moulding along the top edge of the mattress support panel between the end of the fixed half-rail and the left-hand end panel, and drill 3/32" pilot holes into the mattress support panel at each screw location. Attach the moulding to the panel with #8x1-1/2" wood screws.

Step 17: Prepare End-stop for Moving Rail

Picture of Prepare End-stop for Moving Rail
Mark the ends of the dowel pins with a Sharpie or a dab of paint. Close the moving rail against the moulding on the left-hand end panel. The dowel pins should leave marks where they hit the moulding. Drill 5/16" holes into the moulding at those points, deep enough for the dowel pins to fit all the way in (at least 1/2"). The moving rail should now close the crib completely, and the dowel pins should slide in and out without resistance. If the pins are tight, open up the holes with a 3/8" bit.

The upper corner of the moving rail isn't stable. You should choose to position the dowel pin centered
on the end-panel moulding as shown in the picture.

Step 18: Secure the Fixed Railing

Picture of Secure the Fixed Railing
With the rail closed, mark through the 3/16" hole at the bottom of the fixed rail (Step 10) onto the mattress support panel. Drill a 1/8" pilot hole into the panel, and secure the rail with a #8x1-1/2" pan-head wood screw [right]. There is a gap between the rail and the mattress panel; you may want to insert a washer or two (use scotch tape) so that the rail doesn't bend inward.

Step 19: Receiver Hole for Locking Pin

Picture of Receiver Hole for Locking Pin
100_2215.jpg
Keeping the rail closed, mark through the hole in the angle bracket onto the mattress support panel. Move the rail out of the way, and drill a 1/2" hole through the mattress-support panel at the mark. This hole needs to be aligned with and parallel to the 1/4" hole in the angle bracket: you may want to drill a 1/4" hole first with the rail closed, passing the bit through the angle bracket, and enlarge it to 1/2" in a second pass.

Insert the aluminum spacer tube into the hole. It should fit tightly; if not, pull it out, apply a thin bead of epoxy around the end you insert first, and put it back in. If you use epoxy on the spacer, wait for it to dry completely before testing the locking pin.

Step 20: Insert the Locking Pin

Picture of Insert the Locking Pin
Close the rail, and insert the locking pin through the angle bracket and spacer tube (Steps 14 and 19). It should run smoothly in its full length, and not pull back out easily. When you pull hard on the handle, the spring-loaded ball will retract and the pin will come out of the spacer.

If you pull the spacer tube out with the pin, go back and reinstall it with epoxy (c.f. Step 19). The pin should catch on the angle bracket, making it less likely to be misplaced. You may want to secure the locking pin to the bottom rail with a short lanyard, through the hole in the handle. It can also be secured with a 1/4" external retaining clip -- I used a Dremel tool to cut a shallow groove around the locking pin 1-1/8" from the end. After putting the pin through the angle bracket, attach the retaining clip in the groove.

Step 21: Alternative Latch

Picture of Alternative Latch
100_2428.JPG
After a couple of months, my wife noticed that the locking pin was not aligning well with the receiver. She found it difficult to use, especially during our daughter's overnight feeding. The problem is that the angle bracket is attached to the rail with a single screw, and over time it can loosen and rotate out of true.

I decided to attach a different kind of latch mechanism, to see if it worked better for my wife. I choose a simple brass hook attached to the end panel with a #8 wood screw, and the receiving loop nailed onto the end of the bottom rail, as shown.

Step 22: Mind the Gap (2)

Picture of Mind the Gap (2)
The moving rail is two inches away from the mattress, far enough that a baby's arms or feet can "fall in" and get stuck. Insert a block of high-density foam, 25" x 3-1/2" x 2", on top of the moulding, between the mattress and the railing. The foam can be attached permanently with "Gorilla Glue" or some similar adhesive; be sure that it doesn't extend past the inner edge of the mattress support panel.

Step 23: Safety First -- Keep the Railing Locked

With the rail assembly installed, there are still some safety issues to keep in mind. First, don't leave your baby in the crib unattended with the door open. Once they start moving around on their own, babies have a terrific knack to find whatever cliff is around them to fall off! Do not leave the crib closed without inserting the locking pin through the receiver.

The locking pin I chose has a T-handle and is removed simply by pulling. An alternative would be a push-button release pin (McMaster-Carr 90293A114, $17.99) -- the "two action" removal is more secure, but not as accessible for parents with limited finger dexterity.

Step 24: Safety First -- Cover the Railing Posts

Picture of Safety First -- Cover the Railing Posts
When the rail is opened and closed, the moving vertical posts can trap little hands, arms and legs between them. A crib bumper such as the Breathable Baby Bumper (Babies'R'Us item 2529738) can protect against this when your baby is small.

Tie off a free end to the far end of the moving rail, tie off the center of that side at the middle on the fixed rail (you'll need to sew a fabric ribbon onto the bumper), and again at the corner of the fixed rail. When the rail is opened, the bumper will flex and fold, keeping the rail posts covered.

Step 25: A Good Night's Sleep

Picture of A Good Night's Sleep
With this project complete we can put our beautiful baby daughter to bed, and get her up in the morning, without having to lift her up over the railing or "drop" her down to the mattress. When we open the crib, the mattress is right there, just inches off the floor. My wife and I can both get the baby into and out of the crib, day or night, with no extra effort.

Resources and Additional Information


Parenting With a Disability from the Toronto Centre for Independent Living

Through The Looking Glass, Berkeley, CA

Crib Safety for Parents from the
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission

Step 26: From Design to Reality

Picture of From Design to Reality
MAKE_check.jpg
This "step" indulges my vanity and pride in my work. I made the animation using a series of `xfig` drawings to visualize what I wanted before I had started or even bought anything. The video shows me operating the finished crib.



Update 12 Nov 2008: MAKE has accepted a 500-word article about this project! Look for it in Vol. 17, February 2009.

Update 29 Nov 2008: I received a check from O'Reilly for the article!

Update 12 Dec 2008: MAKE's photo editor is coming on Monday to do a shoot.

Update 25 Feb 2009: MAKE 17 is available online! My article will be on page 37; available on newsstands 10 March.

Update 1 Apr 2009: I've received e-mails from a couple of people who adapted my design to their own needs. That's a really great feeling!
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dfergemann made it!11 months ago

Thanks for the great idea and instructions! I just finished adapting this Ikea Gulliver crib based on your plans. I put the mattress in the high position to start out with (easier to reach from a wheelchair) and used the "alternative" hook-and-staple latch. I expect we'll need something a little more child-proof once the baby can stand up and reach it.

IMPORTANT MODIFICATION for anyone else adapting a crib like this: The mattress support for this crib does not bolt directly to the end panels, unlike the description in step 1. Instead, it sits on pins that protrude into the end panels. After skimming the assembly instructions for several other Ikea cribs, I think this may be true of most or all current Ikea cribs. This means that the crib is not stable without either the unmodified front rail or the bottom solid rail for the toddler bed configuration. To solve this problem, I drilled new holes in the leg so that the toddler bed rail could be mounted directly behind its normal position, touching the fixed half of the crib rail. Each end uses one of Ikea's bolts and one wood screw, as shown in the picture. Then the fixed half of the rail can be supported by screwing into the toddler bed rail instead of the mattress support in step 18.

Finally, the mattress support is not safe in the upper position with only the toddler bed rail installed, because the ends of the crib could splay outward enough to pull a pin out. I solved this with a wood screw through each front leg, into the mattress support. The Ikea pins still bears the weight, but the screws keep the mattress support in contact with the legs.

I'm not sure yet what I'll do when it's time to put the mattress in the lower position, since I'll have to remove the toddler bed rail.

IMG_0753.jpgIMG_0752.jpg
kelseymh (author)  dfergemann11 months ago

Wonderful! I am so pleased that you were able to adapt my ideas to fit your needs. You're quite right that the "pin support" cribs don't lend themselves to this kind of mod; that's why I chose the Leksvik crib (the other ones I found with solidly mounted bed frames were $700 at Babies'R'Us!).

For something more solid, you might consider using steel L brackets at each of the four crners: mount them directly below the matress support, screwed into the bottom, with the other side against the end post. Each L bracket will have two screw holes, you can use both into the end posts to provide a firm attachment.

baba874 years ago
AWESOME!!! I was worried about how I was going to get my kids in and out of the crib since Im in a wheelchair. Im so excited!!!
kelseymh (author)  baba874 years ago
Congratulations! I sure hope that it works for you. There are a couple of things you might need/want to change. If you're going to use the crib while you're using your chair, you won't want to cut off the legs; in fact, you might even need to use leg risers to get the bottom up above your lap.

Also, I did not properly design the door latch for users with manual dexterity limitations. Shortly after I published this, someone sent me an e-mail with pictures of their really awesome version. Depending on your specific needs, his ideas might be useful to you.

In any event, good luck, and congratulations again!
baba87 kelseymh4 years ago
Thanks but I'm not expecting yet but I plan on it, hopefully soon. Thanks for the tip.
An excellent idea and instructable.
 
Had made I flip down/up idea when the kids where babies, but this is much better.
Thank you
Thank you!  I thought about both "trailer ramp" and "French doors" implementations, but they both limited how close we could be to the crib when opening/closing.
kelseymh (author) 6 years ago
My article about this crib is out! Please see Step 26 for the link to page 37 of MAKE Vol. 17.
. Woot!

PS: you need some kind of footer or this-is-the-end-of-the-page indicator on your http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~kelsey/docs/Madeleine/crib/ page. It ends rather abruptly after the LOM.
kelseymh (author)  NachoMahma6 years ago
Uh, oh. I did have an end indicator (a repeated of the "Last updated" date). Perhaps I cut it off. Thanks!
kelseymh (author) 6 years ago
I just updated the conclusion with a note --- MAKE has accepted an article about my project! It'll appear in February 2009, Vol. 19.
Very Cool
kelseymh (author)  Goodhart6 years ago
Thanks! BTW, it'll be Vol. 17 (I mistyped above). See my Orangeboard for more :-)
steveharr6 years ago
This may look like a good idea, but think about what will happen when the baby is big enough to stand and grab onto the sliders. Or even put its hand through the bars (and yes a baby could get past that safety device) whilst the sliders are moving, little fingers mean BIG tears. Take it from a Stay at home Dad. Great Instructable, bad idea, Sorry.
kelseymh (author)  steveharr6 years ago
The "sliders" are sealed-bearing drawer glides, not the crappy (and hazardous) open roller type. They are mounted so that the bearing and telescoping sections are on the outside, rather than the inside (and I've pinched my own fingers on the telescpoing sections, so I know what you mean). In an early draft, I was planning to use clear plexi on both halves of the rail. My wife shot that one down pretty quickly, "no baby of mine is going to be put in a cage!". Do you have any ideas for a safer sleeping arrangement where the parent can't lift the child more than 10 to 15 cm off the floor?
etlerd kelseymh6 years ago
Very nice work. I was thinking that to eliminate any concerns about the baby grabbing the top slider, you could affix a strip of plexi to the top of the railing such that it would be impossible for the child to wrap her hand around the railing. Sort of like a shelf attached to the top of the fixed railing. I thought your wife's cage comment was pretty funny...the kid's already in a cage :) It's got bars and everything! Good luck.
Goodhart6 years ago
Wow. Incredible. Very nicely done and a terrific idea. This opens a door for my wife and I (she can not have any children, but we would like to adopt or foster).
kelseymh (author)  Goodhart6 years ago
If you'd like to discuss some of our experiences adopting, let me know. I have no intention of wriiting anything up for public consumption (there are plenty of resources available, and I am not a big fan of "public confessional" writing), but I'm happy to pass on some of what we dealt with privately.
Well, there is one more hurdle my wife must overcome before we can even consider it, but I will keep that in mind, when and if certain decisions are made. Thanks
kelseymh (author)  Goodhart6 years ago
I'm about to jump to a perhaps unwarranted conclusion; if I'm off base, just let me know.

If you or your wife has a disability, would you consider contributing thoughts or comments to my forum topic on how you do your projects? Or anything else you care to contribute to the Assistive Technology Group?

Thanks, and thanks more generally for all of the excellent discussions.
There are disabilities and then there are perceived disabilities. I don't want to go into a public expose` on my wife and her perceptions but let's just say that, she could be in control of most of her affliction but chooses not to be, and also chooses not to place the blame for her condition in the proper direction(s).

The sad thing is, she and I have similar problems, I have had heart surgery because of it, and am now making major changes in my life style in order to change my condition. I need to convince her to do that same. But I have no control over another, and so it goes on. Sorry to be so ambiguous with this in public, but it does weigh on my mind, and elsewhere ;-)

Thank you for your suggestions. At this point, I believe that a family counselor would probably be more useful then anything.
Goodhart, I hope whatever it is you and your wife, make living with it better, wether it be overcoming it, or eating healthier, or whatever it is. Good luck in the future. Michael
Thanks,
Mike yes, I am one too
HAHA! AWESOME!
In one of my classes some 36 or so years ago we had 5 counting me. The teacher learned that there are some circumstances when it is OK to point :-)
Goodhart, you can't be that old. lol. Well my girlfriend and my best friend both are named megan, so teachers would say megan r. However, both there last names started with r, so that gives many teachers headaches.
Oh yes, 36 years ago (well, give or take 2 weeks) I was 14. Honestly.... Check this old forum topic out....
Wow! I hope your feeling better now, surgery was ok? I don't believe you, you lie about your age!
Well, near the same time my Dad died of colon cancer (I have had mine checked regularly for the past 10 years, since I was 40), and he was only 49 at the time, so I was a bit worried about my breathing problems. That is when they did the Cath. and found an 85% blockage in a branch of a major lower anterior artery of my heart. This was back in May 2008. The operation was done in on June 9th Yes, I am recuperating very well thank you. Believe me, in Nov., I become the big five-oh :-) Let's see, do you remember John F. Kennedy being shot (I mean, seeing the live feed)? Um, how about the last launch of the Mercury program (Mercury 9, I believe)? Some people of note, singer Patsy Cline, Martin Luther King, Jr., Lyndon B. Johnson, the death of T.S. Eliot, etc. Some events like the introduction of Zip Codes in the USA, Gemini II, the Vietnam war, the premier of My Fair Lady, the launch of Mariner 4, and the Apollo missions, etc. How about "electric Ice trucks" (they delivered ice to your door in big blocks for your non-electric refrigerator. ;-)
No, I'm, only 13. So I don't remember any of it. I don't think you're turning 50, maybe 40. haha.
Well, one more hint.....on the pic I will display here, I have darkened my beard....it WAS quite gray.....and there is very little hair left on top of my head. :-) (I have lost a little weight since that picture though...)

Mikes Pics 002.jpg
Well, that's good. I still don't believe you though!
Tis ok, I wasn't put on the earth to convince anyone of anything - - just help where I can, those I can, & for those that want it :-) <br/><br/>BTW: here is a video from my past....a commercial for the candy Good'n'Plenty ....enjoy...<br/><br/><div style="margin-left:15px;"> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ExSlyoVTX3I"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ExSlyoVTX3I" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344" wmode="transparent"></embed></object></div><br/>
ps: all of those things I remember are from the EARLY 1960's ;-)
Crusty_076 years ago
This is great. Well thought out and obviously very functional. 5/5.
This is neat! Very useful design. 5/5 stars.
kelseymh (author)  Lithium Rain6 years ago
Thank you! I had a lot of fun with it -- this was the largest scale project I actually built from my own design (I think the snowboard ski bindings were more complex, but smaller).
I didn't even see those-those are awesome too. Where do you like to go skiing?
kelseymh (author)  Lithium Rain6 years ago
I haven't skied in several years :-( When I was a post-doc in Vancouver, I'd go with friends to all three of the local places (half hour away!). We took those bindings and a rented snowboard up to Alpine Meadows in Tahoe (home of the [http://www.dsusafw.org//winter.shtml Tahoe Adaptive Ski School]). In grad school, I skied at several of the Colorado places (Brekenridge, Copper Mountain, Wolf Creek, and others I don't even remember).

And you?
I haven't skied in a few years either. :'( My parents have skied all over, especially in Colorado. I have been to several ones in the New York/New Jersey/Pennsylvania area. Also a really cool place in Canada called Mont Saint-Sauveur a few times (did you know they drink milk out of bags up there? I sure didn't!). But my favorite place is a pretty dinky little place in PA called Blue Knob. It's practically deserted, so we basically have the whole mountain to ourselves. It has limited runs, but some good glades and an awesome bowl.
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