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P2 of BORG1 year ago

Let see what fun I can gleen from this...

Ziggythewiz2 years ago
Where'd it go?
yeah where did it go
grenadier (author)  daisyalan2 years ago
To my website!
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
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"The toxicity is actually of little concern."

Media hype aside, the established body of medical and scientific research on these compounds does not support your statement.

It's your body; treat it how you will, but I urge you to please be careful about spreading misinformation such as the statement above.

Again, there are reasons that these oils have been banned since the 70's
wiki is not a reliable source bro.
wiki is the right source if it has the answer you are looking for, if you don't like or agree with there's,, there is alway "brittanica" or what ever agrees with you
grenadier (author)  cablemonkey4 years ago
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From Wikipedia: "Studies in workers exposed to PCBs have shown changes in blood and urine that may indicate liver damage. In Japan in 1968, 280 kg of PCB-contaminated rice bran oil was used as chicken feed, resulting in a mass poisoning, known as Yushō disease, in over 14,000 people. Common symptoms included dermal and ocular lesions, irregular menstrual cycles and lowered immune responses.Other symptoms included fatigue, headaches, coughs, and unusual skin sores. Additionally, in children, there were reports of poor cognitive development."

Yes, a simple task like "pulling a transformer out of a PCB filled x-ray head" probably wont kill you. But what you are not understanding is that there is a probability that it will cause damage such that if x amount of people perform the same task y amount will develop a health concern, some of which might be life threatening.

And to say something like mineral oil is also a carcinogen is petty. It is a matter of degrees. You can burn you hand with a match but you can do a lot worse with an acetylene torch.

You are not using these materials responsibly and as you're the one disseminating this information it is incumbent upon you to address health concerns and to not offhandedly dismiss knowledgeable people like cablemonkey who are trying to help you.
like he said don't eat it
I'm going to have to agree with grenadier on this one. The toxicity of polychlorinated biphenols is of little concern. The rice that caused Yushō disease was also contaminated with Polychlorinated dibenzofurans and Polychlorinated dibenzodioxins; both chemicals much more toxic than PCBs. Those PCDFs and the PCDDs were likely the cause of the health effects experienced by those people, with the PCBs having little to no responsibility.
bears03 years ago
that step wont delete because its the first step. lol you put all the information in the intro. although you probably already knew that.
deaks4 years ago
"Hopefully to the point where radioshack can actually start selling components again and not just phones and cameras."

Amen to that brother...
static deaks4 years ago
Unfortunately the chance of Radio Shack stocking electronic components, are slim to bone. I heard slim left town last week.. Might be wise to buy a few items each pay check to build up a personal inventory while RS still stocks them. YMMV the store here still stocks a limited selection, I hear others don't at all.
drusilla static4 years ago
Why even bother with Radioshack? Order online from places like Mouser or Digikey. The shipping cost is worth it because you'll be paying a normal price for components, instead of the Radioshack prices of something like a few dollars for five resistors.
can't forget ebay... bought a pack of 100 resistors for $1.10
static drusilla3 years ago
I'm not sure what the "normal" price is, but 4 cents for a resistor isn't really out of line. In regards to mail order I haven't found anything that comes in much better with all the charges are considered delivered to my door. Been there done that, and always revisiting it to see if it has improved. In 35 years it really hasn't. All things considered the local RS generally was the one to beat. The only thing that has changed is the inventory. Even that means there are new items RS now stocks that I can buy there for less than I can via mail order.
drusilla static3 years ago
I just don't think it makes sense to stock up on components at RS. 4 cents per isn't out of line, but RS doesn't sell things under .99 for a 5-pack. I do consider 4 cents per a perfectly fine price to pay for component you don't buy in bulk (<100 units, say?).

I think that most people, once they make a list of what they'd like to have on hand for projects, will find it cheaper to look online. It's fairly easy to show that is true if you're looking to stock up on about ten or so common resistor values, and very easy to show if you want to stock up on anything else as well, namely LEDs, transistors, 555 timer chips, hobby motors, switches....all the common project stuff.
static4 years ago
You have some laudable goals, Keep in mind it's hard to interest kids in new things if the cost prevents them affording what the other kids are doing. As you mention project that would interest them will be hard to come by High Voltage project may be one of them, they may also be ones that will prompt parent to apply the brakes. Who knows? You mentioned soldering irons. Before making any investment make sure you can compete with local established hardware, and box store. Who often stock Weller soldering irons Just basic soldering irons, but that's all a beginner needs anyway.
grenadier (author)  static4 years ago
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Most likely many(most?) parents wouldn't have a clue about current limiting, and still nix the idea. Minor burns they would understand.
Top stuff. Have you ever modified a MOT for high voltage I have and it's awesome?
Speedmite3 years ago
Wow, I just realized you were the same person who wrote the 'ible on the plasma speaker I had put on my to do list of things to make. Im trying to get into high voltage electricity, but time, money and parents slow that endeavor. It took some convincing to build a railgun. Thank you for this lengthy enlightening guide. It gives me more ideas to add to the list of things to do.

Also, havent checked it out, but my mom works at a place where the buisness upstairs does neon signs. Potential goodies.
csmit8033 years ago
hi people
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
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WOAH!! 1.3kw!!!!!!! MAXIMUM RESPECT DUDE!!!!!

im sure if you crank it into kilowatt range you would experience problems,but compared to all the lame oscillators ive ever built (555 astable,transistor flip flop,L.C oscillators,positive feedback audio amplifier oscillators....) this one realy shines!!....i still need to get used to having my semiconductors totally cool and my 0.7mm wire smoking ,as other stuff ive built generally have bipolar transistors breaking out in flames ,for panzy wispy sparks.

thanks for the info about the separate mosfet supply,but i think ill stick with 120w it seems a lot "safer" :)

grenadier (author)  themattar4 years ago
120W is for wimps, plug it into the rectified mains :p
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
3 FBTs? Awesome.
CrLz4 years ago
Fantastic- immediate Fav!

Read this, I hear evil chuckles of mad science delight....
grenadier (author) 4 years ago

And about the diode: I wouldn't say useful, as it is a regular slow diode and it will also probably die if you try to pull an arc through it. Some regular high current diodes in series would be much tougher than that puny plastic thing.
You might be able to wire them in parallel to handle more current, much like you can wire them in series to handle more voltage.

I haven't tested it, but the resistance from the assembly should be (diode resistance) / (# of diodes) because you're multiplying the area of the PN junction by (# of diodes). Since the cross-sectional area of a conductor is inversely proportional to resistance, and resistance is inversely proportional to current, by wiring diodes in parallel you should be able to pull more amps without subjecting each individual diode to more current than it's used to.

I've noticed that for passive components, you can (sometimes) multiply the voltage they can handle by wiring them in series, while you can (usually) multiply the current they can handle by wiring them in parallel.
t.rohner4 years ago
Very, very nice instructable.
This is one of the best instructables, i have seen so far.
5++++ and my vote for it. (The PCB-Lab, POV is in the same range)
I second, that not too many young people are interested in electronics. (Beside plugging in a game console...)
But there still are, you can see them here.
I made my Ham-license when i was 17.

I have a very funny story about my younger brother, a antistatic bag and a CW cascade.
I was hanging around in my room, playing with this CW, that was scrounged from a powder coating machine.
I had a grounding strap on the floor and a antistatic bag on it. (the metallized bags)
I zapped on the bag and after a short while, a spark ran around the bags edges.
I was quite amazed for a while, until i realized, that the spark vapourized the metallization on the edges.
I switched off the CW and wanted to discard the bag. Holy moly, i got a zap from the bag. After i thought about it, i realized i made a condensator by insulating the edges.

So i reloaded it and at that point my brother entered my room with one of his friends. He was around 8 then... I asked him, if he wanted a bag of electricity. He said, you can't put electricity in a bag. (Now he also works in electronics)
I teased him, ok, then take it.
The rest is history... and we still have a very good relationship.

grenadier (author)  t.rohner4 years ago
Heh, I've managed to get quite a jolt from a regular plastic sheet by charging it with a CW. There was no metallization at all, but it still held a charge somehow.
irwinner4 years ago
This is an amazing instructable. Having so much relevant and useful information in one place is so convenient. I've been meaning to make myself a a few HV power supplies for a while now and no I have no excuse not to. You've literally done all the work i would have needed to do for me already, thank you! you got my vote for sure, I hope you get your idea up and running soon, you will definitely have my business.
Electorials4 years ago
It's a really noce guide! Congratulations.
You've really explained Every possible thing you can that's related to the MOT.

It's also nice that you are trying to get people busy with electronics as their hobby.

osama_4 years ago
Great work man, Thanks
As so many have already said, awesome job! My electrical engineering students are going to get a LOT of mileage out of this. Thank you very much!
grunff4 years ago
Fantastic instructable, well done! That's the most detailed review of high voltage sources I've ever come across.

Someone this far into HV really needs to build a Tesla coil though. Look forward to seeing yours in a future writeup.
grenadier (author)  grunff4 years ago
I have tons of magnet wire and the NSTs to make one, and it's on my to-do list. I have a very long to-do list though...
Excellent work, got my vote. And I totally agree with grunff, a Tesla coil is recommended. It took me a few tries to get it right but the result was well worth it:

My next project will be a DRSSTC.

MSDS for PCBs in case anyone is interested:

You're right, the toxicity isn't too bad but it never hurts to be careful.
cegu4 years ago
This is exacly what I was looking for. I'm 1 year away from beeing an electrical engineer (well, specialized for Telecommunication), and this is what we should be dooing more.
charlie_r4 years ago
Wonderful 'ible! especially liked the MOT sections. I'll never throw another MO out again without removing all components.

I do hope you win the Zing!

Side note: my first hand build radio was a crystal, with the added plus of a 3 stage transistor amp driving an 8ohm speaker.

byenter4 years ago
I have found this info in various places on the net but you did a great job putting it in one place. I too would like to see more experimenting and I think you may have encouraged just that. Excellent job!
ARJOON4 years ago
best of all. now no one will ever post instructables any more on hv. (i think)
Emiliogiz4 years ago
Wow. This is literally the best instructable that I've ever read. I only recently started venturing into high voltage projects, a simple welder from another instructable on here, but this is just perfect.

I've been indecisive about trying to do a Jacob's ladder or your plasma speaker for my next project and this gives me so many more tantalizing options.

Well done, sir. You definitely deserve the laser cutter.
warpling4 years ago
I actually hunkered down and read this start to finish despite my initial 'TLDR' reaction. I like your dream and enjoyed your writing :) (especially the part about where to obtain PTs)
Mig Welder4 years ago
You've sold me!
I see the problem you presented (in a strikingly eloquent manner) and I agree, almost no one does this kind of stuff anymore. Everything has correct spelling and grammar which is huge for me. I'm not sure about how far you'll get but I wish you the best of luck and if you manage to get this little business off the ground, I'll be sure to buy from it! You have my vote and I posted it on my Facebook.

I hope you win.
Dr.Bill4 years ago
You Win !
Thank You for all the work you put into this 'ible'.
I learned a lot of cool stuff and will be looking at
this post again and again.
Goodhart4 years ago
You wrote: now most kids don't even know how a radio works let alone how to make one or any other circuit for that matter....

I agree.  I am one of the Older set here, and have been finding it difficult to find anyone in my area interested in any "electronics projects" at all, and only a few PC enthusiasts. 

I started my  Latest ible with the intent of starting at the very basics (super simple crystal sets) to a bit more complex (and making a radio almost completely out of stuff found in the home; and still no connection to the MAINS.   :-)

You did a VERY thorough job here, and as a long time subscriber, have to say I am VERY impressed.   Thank you for taking the time to share this with all.
smeata4 years ago
wow, this is great, so detailed. even the comments are impressive, in my quick skim over the comments i haven't seen any flaming or people saying "its to dangerous to be an instructable"
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
Actually the MOT's core is not live, In fact in a microwave oven the MOT's core is electrically connected to the chassis, and if it were hot well then touching a microwave oven would be lethal!

As for the "+", I use + and - to differentiate between secondary windings on a transformer. In a center tapped transformer one HV output will always be negative while the other is positive, and therefore the + and - imply that the outputs cannot be tied together (unless you use diodes on both to make a full wave rectified output).

In transformers with only one secondary winding I designate the output with a +, mainly because transformers are most often used with a diode to create +HVDC rather than -HVDC.
tgriner14 years ago
I love the idea stated in your intro, getting kids to make stuff is a great thing. If you don't win the laser, don't give up. Look around your area for hacker shops or Maker groups. My local group has gotten an Epilog, and for minimun cost anyone can use it after taking the training class. I know that Columbus Ohio is not the only city with a maker comunity, so hang in there, and know that there are others who believe like you.
grenadier (author)  tgriner14 years ago
There are no such groups where I live, nor are there any hamfests. There really isn't anything "techy" where I reside :-/
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
The internet! Some websites have a whole bunch of them, but I usually get mine from ebay. HV diodes are rather expensive though compared to UF4007s.
static4 years ago
A lot of time and effort went into this, I'll have to return it in depth. While certainty do not want an electrical current flowing over my skin, but that's a different phenomenon that he skin effect that occurs with higher frequency AC flowing through a conductor. The fact that AC will flow over the skin under some conditions is a reason why some people survive an accident not die. Not that is an excuse for carelessness while working with electrical power.
grenadier (author)  static4 years ago
I'm well aware that the skin effect pertains to current flowing through a conductor, but some people think that it means high frequency AC will flow no deeper than human skin. This is true in certain circumstances, IE; frequencies greater than 3-4MHz. However, anything lower than that and the current will flow through deeper tissues and cause major damage.
Nice job. Very ambitious. I wish I knew someone in HS that was willing to get me into electronics. Now, approaching 40 I have books to teach myself and the internet and the willingness, but not nearly the time I feel I need.
paappraiser4 years ago
Amazing work! ..
Really cool Instructable!
Good work!

savvy99994 years ago
got my vote.

what a resource! very nice job. It will take me hours to read that pdf, and it will be done with pleasure. love the reuse/recycle/retrofit existing and commonly available junk/components angle of all of this. Need more like this, to get good stuff out of landfills and being used again.
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
Thanks for the support
I wish you success. Make sure S&H makes your kits affordable to Canadian kids as well ;-)
He better!
grenadier (author)  XXxsusiexXX4 years ago
Sure, I don't see why not! I have big hopes for the future and I won't exclude Canadian kids from them.
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
I suppose that's what happens when someone stays up to 3AM every school night writing a guide. I don't even remember what I was supposed to embed there...

Your guide still rocks the socks off of everything. Relax! :-)
XXxsusiexXX4 years ago
Wow, this is amazing. You certainly put a lot of work into this and you definitely deserve that laser cutter.

I wish you the best of luck <3
nowen14 years ago
I like your drive to get people into electronics, My belief is that THIS has to be done but new methods. The big Commercial companies don't care any more about anyone that wants a couple diodes and some transistors. People have been dumbed down so much so that an average person can't even change their own oil in there car.. What hope do the kids of the world have, Well there is a new way (with old roots) that has be brought forward via the Internet. Average people from all around the world unite into communities that share knowledge young and old communicating information openly and freely. Sites like this and are our new communities we can learn the trades via practical applications of hacking*. Soldering, circuit design, C programming there are no limits. Who needs Dicksmith or Radio Shack to source your parts from. There are alternative methods such as discarded microwaves, TV's and consumer electronics. Stop using Windows and Adopt Unix/Linux** brake the chain of being feed to work and sleep and nothing more. Most importantly hack, hack, hack away.

*Hacking; I use this not so much in the stereo typical software way, In context I mean to change or manipulate hardware, deviating the circuits, firmware and control software for your own desired outcome.

**Linux Vs Windows sure you can use Windows based systems to hack but it means mostly working illegal because of the high prices of software that might be required. Unix/Linux and deviates offer a alternative that is free and open source this means that you can change the world at no cost. Read up on open source and GNU.

Kind Regards
Nick Own
grenadier (author)  nowen14 years ago
I'd like to see someone convince a COD playing 13 year old that C++ is cool. Things such as digital MCUs, Unix programming, they aren't really for people who have never touched a transistor before. Sure one could always get an arduino kit and follow all the "learning steps" in that huge book, but honestly when I did that I never made it past chapter one. Instead I went back to analog circuits, and it was much more fun.

Fun is the key to getting people interested in this hobby again. If they chose they can go the analog route and design things like switch mode power supplies, or they can go the digital route and design embedded systems. It's entirely up to the hobbyist.
jam BD4 years ago
Such a good summary. Well done on the amount info on such a wide variety of sources.
junits154 years ago
This is the best intractable I have ever seen in my life, and odds are its going to keep that position for a very long time. I hope you win that laser cutter because I'd really like to see you visualize your dream of making those cool kits. I think you deserve the cutter a lot more than anybody else that entered for it. Lets be honest most people would much rather see that laser cutter be used to make awesome circuit kits, not cute ans soft lime green "save the planet" shirts. This was really fun to read and I learned tons of cool stuff from it. :) MAJOR kudos to you.
DooDooDooo4 years ago
You would think that, but there are loads of people trying to pawn them for like $75 on craigslist. It just makes me facepalm.
mman15064 years ago
submitted this to hack a day and you got in! dont worry i didn't take credit for it or anything
grenadier (author)  mman15064 years ago
Thanks man
Best instructable in a long time. 5 Starts
5 starts? No it only starts once.
grenadier (author) 4 years ago

But I bought mine used, so it was much cheaper.
Dear grenadier, upon searching for good schematics and info on building a plasma speaker i stumbled upon your high voltage tutorial. albeit my experience lies moreso with prefabbed hardware exclusively pcs ive always had an interest in projects like this. i must say your tutorial was very intuitive and easy to follow, i really learned alot from it and i think ive found a new hobby. thanks for really taking the time out in making it (im sure it took a while @_@). i hope you really do bring back a new generation of hobbyists....without experimentation with even the basics new technology cant be born. Sincerely, PhenomXtreme
grenadier (author)  PhenomXtreme4 years ago
"without experimentation with even the basics new technology cant be born. "

Inducktion4 years ago
He's worked for several month's on this. He REALLY wants that printer laser thingie. I know, he kept on sending me the link to his instructable every now and then, letting me look at it, and honestly, I gotta say he really put some time into this.
grenadier (author)  Inducktion4 years ago
uhh... thanks jared.
hafsteinn4 years ago
Wow... just wow...
fkling4 years ago
Definitely 5 stars! (and a vote on u also)
your dog4 years ago
It is obvious you have spent a lot of time on this. Great job, I hope you win!
rc jedi4 years ago
excellent! bravo! a great overview. i am a dumpster diver too.
Rock on!
wow this is one of the most thorough instructables i've ever seen. lots of information. good job.
76543214 years ago
on purpose...
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
Hot glue works well as an insulator, but if something breaks it's ridiculously hard to fix.
grenadier (author) 4 years ago
Well I just fixed some of the annotations. I swear they have a mind of their own!
EmcySquare4 years ago
***** Definetly 5 STARS !!! *****

I'd like to see more 'ibles done with that accuracy.

By the way: I happend to have a <> transformer around coming from and old dead UPS. Could that be of any practial use?
grenadier (author)  EmcySquare4 years ago
I have no clue what a <> transformer is...
LeumasYrrep4 years ago
Great Instructable, I can only imagine the amount of time that went into this. I have definitely saved this for future reference.

It always amazes me what a few turns around a piece of iron can do.
dataphool4 years ago
Excellent! I have D/L'd a copy for future reference. You have struck a blow for all right thinking thinkers. And even left thinkers.
anres3214 years ago
this is the longest instructable I have ever seen !!! great job :D 5*
omnibot4 years ago
This is worth saving for later reference. Thanks <3
flyboy114 years ago
(removed by author or community request)
grenadier (author)  IW5 Industries4 years ago
I don't count flybacks that have "buried" ferrite cores as you can't put your own primaries on them, but yes those are indeed the smallest ones.
temper4 years ago
The best Instructable in a long long time - well done!
buirv4 years ago
This is an Excellent Instrutable. Great reference, circuits, photos, movies ect... You got my 5 stars! B-)