No irrigation raised bed gardening system (Hugelkultur)

 by SaveOurSkills
Featured
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Approximate Project Cost is $90 per bed. Here is a detailed cost breakdown based on Lowes pricing in 16066 and bolts from Tractor Supply (by weight) http://bit.ly/H8tdh5

My garden beds are a combination of a few things I like.

1- would be raised bed gardening and in particular square foot gardening
2- Hugelkultur - this is a technique where wood is buried inside of the garden bed which greatly reduces and even can eliminate the need for irrigation. Don't take my word for it... read this, and listen to this and this   For the purposes of this instruct-able I'll ask you to suspend your disbelief and lets just assume your on board with hugelkultur. If you want to debate it take it up with Paul or Jack.

Tools I used
Hammer
Pipe clamps (not 100% required)
Circular Saw
Miter Saw (can use circular saw for all cuts, but it makes it easier)
Drill
Tape Measure
Carpenter's Pencil or Sharpie
Level
Mattock (not required but suggested)
Shovel
Kreg Jig - I used the Jr. version
Socket Wrench

Materials
3"  5/26 galvanized lag bolts              Quantity: 12
5/16 lock washers                               Quantity: 12
Ondura Corrugated Roofing Sheet ** Quantity: 2
Galvanized Roofing Nails                  Quantity: 50 to 100....
Pressure Treated 8' 2x4 lumber*       Quantity: 9
2.5" Kreg Screws                                 Quantity: 56

Note: I would suggest getting your bolts at a place that sells them by weight such as tractor supply. It will end up being a lot cheaper.


Cut List for 2x4s
8' (note does not require cut)             Quantity: 4
4'                                                              Quantity: 4
17.5"                                                        Quantity: 14


* My research indicates that current, modern, pressure treated lumber is safe for use in the garden. Please do your own research and present facts rather than flames should you choose to comment on this material.  A more expensive alternative would be cedar or redwood.

Please before you spout off about "arsenic" in the comments be aware that ACQ treated lumber does not contain this substance!

http://www.walterreeves.com/uploads/pdf/acqwood.pdf

**Ondura is light, easy to work with and cheap. However if you are uncomfortable with plastic in your garden you can use traditional metal roofing for this project


 

Step 1: Step: 1 - Cut all 2x4s to length

I suggest using a miter saw if you own one, however a circular saw is fine or even a manual cross cut saw will get the job done. Cut all the 2x4s and make a stack of each type by cut

Cut List for 2x4s
8' (note does not require cut)             Quantity: 4
4'                                                              Quantity: 4
17.5"                                                        Quantity: 14

Step 2: Drill your pocket holes

raisedbed.jpg
Drill all of your pocket holes.

You will need 10 pocket holes (5 sets of 2) in each 8' board
You will need 4 pocket holes (2 sets of 2) in each 4' board


First mark your boards where the edges of your 17.5" supports will be with a pencil or sharpie. Refer to the photo for the approximate dimensions. You don't need CNC machine precision here. Just make the middle support centered and the other 2 supports should have a 10 3/4" gap from the edge.

The 10 3/4" gap is significant. The ondura sheets are shy of 8' long so one of these supports will cover your overlap and hide the seem.  The one on the other side exists for symmetry in addition to support.

The Kreg Jr. Jig comes with an instruction manual which should be adequate, however watching this video should give you an idea of what is involved:

Step 3: Screw your panels together

Lay your 2x4s out on a level surface.

If your 2x4s are bowed you can clamp them using some long clamps such as pipe clamps to hold them in position.

Drive your 2.5" kreg screws into the 17.5" supports.

You should now have finished panels ready to accept Ondura sheeting. 

Please bear in mind that the side with the exposed pocket holes should face inward (so that the joints are hidden)

Step 4: Cut the ondura roofing

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ondura2.jpg
Cutting ondura is easy enough with a circular saw and a rough measurement. Make sure the hump faces up when you are ripping it. Refer to the first drawing

To do your cross-cuts you will have to readjust your blade height.

I would advise you to cut it outside on some saw horses. Adjust your circular saw to the minimum depth required. There is no need to make sure the cut is perfectly square as the edges are not going to be exposed in the final product. Just eyeball it.

Step 1:
-----------------------------

Rip both sheets lengthwise at 24"

You should now have 4 approximately 7' long sheets of ondura.

You want to leave a minimum of 2.5" of exposure on the end of each panel.  Refer to the second drawing

Step 2:
Measure your 4x3 panel 2.5" in from both sides. Cut 2 pieces to fit this width

Step 3:
Cut one of your scrap pieces in half. You will use one these to fill the gap on the end of each of your 8' sides.


Step 5: Nail roofing material to panels

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On a flat surface face your pocket holes up. Lay your roofing material down on the frames. If your edges overhang make sure that they only overhang on one side. This can be the side that rests in the soil. You do not want exposed roofing edges.

Drive galvanized roofing nails liberally to secure the roofing material to the frames.

A finished 2x4 frame should look like the one in the first photo. I don't think it matters which side you face out. I chose to face the black side out, however ondura comes in a variety of colors and you might wish to face the color side out.

I had roofing nails left over from another project and used both the standard nails and the ones with the plastic caps. I found the plastic cap nails to conform nicely to the curves of the ondura. Overall I liked using those better than the standard ones.

The second photo illustrates a completed bed.. you can see the roofing nails in it. I tried to space them fairly evenly.

Step 6: Bolt together your panels into the final bed shape

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You should do this on a flat, level surface such as a driveway, deck, or patio.

Hold one side up to another. It helps to have a partner hold them together or in my case I used some quick clamps as an extra set of hands.

Pre-drill a lag screw hole in the top 2x4 and drive in a 3" lag screw with your socket wrench. Make sure the tops are flush before drilling!
Drill a second hole in the middle (eyeball it) and drive a 3" lag screw there
Finally drill a hole in the bottom and drive a 3" lag screw there

You will be using a total of 12 3" lag screws to bolt all 4 frames together. There should be 6 bolts on each side

The photo shows what it should look like

These are pretty heavy, so assemble this as close to where it will go as possible.

Step 7: Level the bed

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Ok now you can stick this out in your lawn or garden spot, wherever that might be. Your putting logs and 2' of soil in there so I'm not concerned with putting down cardboard first, however that is up to you.

Take your level and place it on the bed.  Dig a trench with a mattock and scoop it out with a shovel around all sides until you have made the bed level. You can dump the removed soil into the middle of the bed. I chose to reserve the soil and dump it on top of the logs after I did step 8.

The photo shows 2 leveled beds

You can see the trench required. These were placed on a slight slope and one end needed to be dropped about 5"

Step 8: Fill with wood

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Fill your beds about 1/2 way or more with a variety of woods. I used maple logs and apple/pear wood since that was what i had available on my property. You need to leave between 6 to 12 inches for root growth.

I first layered the bottom with the largest logs, second I placed much smaller branches all around.

If you have leaves you can put down a thick layer of leaves here. You can also scoop in any excess dirt from leveling the beds on top at this point if it was left around the edges.

If you want an even greater effect you can dig out the bottom of the bed to make room for more wood, that's up to you and how ambitious you want to get.

The photo shows my beds awaiting soil.

Step 9: Fill beds with compost

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Fill with compost. At this point you need to find someone who has a pickup truck/trailer, or have a local landscape place deliver you a load.

We found that 1 pickup truck full (2 "scoops") fills up one bed.

We used a combination of organic cow manure and organic mushroom compost.

In the very top layer I mixed in peat moss and vermiculite to make my "mel's mix"

The attached photo shows the bed before I added the vermiculite and peat

Step 10: Square foot gardening grid

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Square foot gardening (SFG) Involves a grid of 1 foot squares where you plant different crops in different squares. This makes it easy to create a polyculture in your garden and to practice effective crop rotation in your garden.  

Here are some links to some free square foot gardening planning tools:
Gardener's Supply
Smart Gardener

In his book "All new square foot gardening" Mel suggests only using rigid grids. I find rigid grids harder to work with and more expensive to install.   I prefer a simple Nylon clothes line available at any home center. I even got a glow in the dark clothes line from Harbor Freight.
  1. Cut a scrap piece of wood to 12" long
     
  2. Using the wood as a spacer add a galvanized nail every 12". I chose to drive my nails into the side of the bed rather than the top. This is so I can leave the top flat in case I want to add a green house to the top or otherwise utilize that surface area.
  3. Tie the clothes line to a nail and simply start wrapping it around to form the grid. I started in the short dimension first for no particular reason.
  4. When you get to the point where you need to change direction you will need to drive an extra nail in that corner.

It is really very simple, however  please refer to the photos for clarifications.


To come:

1 - removable deer protection panels
2 - pvc trellis
3- SFG grid
4- cucumber trellis
5 - pvc tomato grid

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tonyprescott says: May 6, 2012. 8:57 AM
Thanks for the Instructable. I've been meaning to make some raised beds for a while and thought this was a very interesting concept that I had to try out. Couldn't find any Ondura around (no Lowes) but I did find some similar Suntop stuff. It was similar in price ($25) but it came in 2' x 12' sections so it fit nicely. I only had a few aged rounds to put in so I did some pruning and cut down some large branches from some of our trees as filler.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/116799145749804483138/albums/5739443476146341281
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to tonyprescottMay 7, 2012. 9:55 AM
This is really cool. I love the paint you used. What a nice color combination! Remember you need to soak these down on year one really well to get the rotting process going. I'd recommend a leaf or grass mulch too to hold in moisture.
godbacon says: Nov 5, 2012. 9:11 AM
Pressure treated wood is poisoned with heavy metals and arsenic, to keep the bugs away. It's the kind of poison, vegetables like to suck up. It is not intended to be used around food. It is recommended that a breathing mask is worn while cutting it.

USDA certified organic producers are not allowed to use pressure treated wood of any kind in their production beds.

CCA pressure treated wood has been injected or soaked with chromate copper arsenate, or chromium, copper and ARSENIC

I would advise everyone thinking of using in their garden to do their own research as to wether it is appropriate in their garden.

Rough cut hard wood works just as well and doesn't need to be kiln dried to use. You will not find it in a big box store but maybe a ride into the county would be a nice relaxing experience.
godbacon in reply to godbaconNov 5, 2012. 9:44 AM
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to godbaconNov 5, 2012. 11:37 AM
One thing you are correct about is that you can not use ACQ lumber for being certified organic, however the the science and research do not back this up.

Even with CCA treated lumber the studies and soil samples taken from the soil have shown nothing above normal levels of arsenic after the first 2 inches of soil past the wood.

Again this is not relative to my project because I am using ACQ
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to godbaconNov 5, 2012. 11:28 AM
You are wrong. You are talking about CCA which isn't even what is sold.

Do your homework. Newly purchased pressure treated wood is ACQ

Your information became outdated around 2004 when supplies stopped producing CCA treated lumber.

-Nick
ortsa says: Jul 19, 2012. 3:16 PM
Since your using essentially peat and manure how often do you plan to replace the compost?
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to ortsaJul 19, 2012. 4:23 PM
Also I practice "chop and drop" a permaculture principle... basically a fancy way of saying when your prune something just leave the pruning in the garden to be re-incorporated.
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to ortsaJul 19, 2012. 4:23 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by replace, however you should constantly add mulch and compost to your garden. You can mulch your plants with wood chips or shredded leaves or whatever. This of course will break down into the soil as well.

As far as compost goes I generally add it at the beginning of the year. I have 3 large piles where every 3rd year one is ready to go into the garden.

Hope that helps

-Nick
tim_n says: Mar 23, 2012. 2:12 AM
Not seen the wood method before. Just did my own raised bed system:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Raised-Beds/

I find ondura too flexable. I use it on my shed roof and on top of one of my waterbutts. The cat sits on the ondura and it bends under her weight and she's a pretty small cat (with a fat bum). The wood I'm guessing will reduce the weight and the ondura will repel water into the bed which is good.

I wouldn't be happy knowing that the ondura (or my native similar stuff is, not sure about ondura) is made from oil and cardboard - I'd be worried about chemicals leaching into the soil.

Good instructable though - congrats on your first making front page!

SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to tim_nMar 23, 2012. 6:54 AM
Personally it's not a concern to me at all. Ondura isn't likely to break down enough in any one year to make any significant impact in my organically grown food. I'd bet my life that no more than trace amounts would be present. It would be no worse than ingesting the naturally present arsenic available in any given system.

It's better than the salad I'm probably going to eat for lunch at the restaurant next to my work, which was sprayed from start to finish with toxic chemicals and raised with petroleum fertilizer. People hold the home gardener to unreasonably high standards. It's funny how high the standards go once you have unlimited access to analyze the methods of production.

I'm not saying your wrong, you have to do what is comfortable for them. I'd suggest using traditional metal corrugated roofing for this project if you don't like plastic in the garden.
cvarady in reply to SaveOurSkillsMay 2, 2012. 11:03 PM
Excellent instructable! Here's a polycarbonate alternative to Ondura, Tuftex in 8' lengths. http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=71756-1115-202A&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3043302&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=rel&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

More $$ but may relieve some concerns.  With or without the Hugekultur, it's a very well thought out plan.  Thank you.
pdxman says: Mar 29, 2012. 4:00 PM
Treated wood and uptake of chemicals by vegetables:

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/CCA%20wood.pdf

http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/freepubs/pdfs/uc173.pdf

brian_3339 in reply to pdxmanApr 25, 2012. 5:38 PM
pdxman,

While I appreciate your concern regarding treated wood and gardens, the references you cite are a bit dated. CCA pressure treated lumber was banned for consumer use by the EPA in 2003. Any pressure treated lumber manufactured for consumer use after that date has no arsenic in it.
junewhosews says: Apr 23, 2012. 4:33 AM
Are termites a problems with this method and if so how do you countrol them organic method.?
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to junewhosewsApr 23, 2012. 6:21 AM
I tried to find out about your issue online. Try asking over at permies.com.

They aren't typically a problem in my area. My wood is buried under a foot or so of soil, not sure if that is a deterrent or not.

olanderd says: Apr 9, 2012. 3:39 PM
I have been reading Insturctables for over a year now and there are a lot of great ideas. Yours is the first one that I have executed. I have been looking for a "cheap" solution to raised planters. I love all the extra information and links that you provided. I hate to fall into the category of you doing all the work for me, but I will admit that you did do all of it and all I had to do was read. Thanks. I build four of these beds, used cedar instead of treated only because it will match my fence and used the red Ondura. It matches the trim our house perfectly. I just finish putting the large logs into them today. I will be sore tomorrow. I got mine from a landscape supply place for free. They recycle trees for mulch etc. Although I will say that I more than one person gave me weird looks and comments upon my request, including the owner of the business.

I am off to a local supplier for vermiculite, compost and peat moss tomorrow to mix up Mel's Mix and hopefully finish these off tomorrow and get them planted by the weekend.

A couple of suggestions on the build. I used the lag screws as you had mentioned but found that the cedar was too soft to hold very good after pre drilling and some of them stripped out. I reinforced the connections with 3" deck screws and should of used them by themselves. I also used them in place of the Kreg screws, one because the cedar is nominally thicker than than the treated lumber and two they are much stouter and better designed for outdoor use. The Ondura, if you want to have the color side facing out, you need to bend the ridge down because after you cut the panels in half the cut edges are "up". This is easily accomplished especially if you let them sit in the sun for while, but it doubles the use of the roofing nails to give the panels a clean edge on the top side. Overall an EXCELLENT Instructable, very well laid out and a wealth of information. Thanks again.
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SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to olanderdApr 11, 2012. 6:17 AM
awesome, nice work. One thing to note. During your first year typically hugelkultur has less than awesome results. Sometimes people even just write it off and plant cover crops.

The wood has to soak up a ton of water and also start to break down, which will draw nitrogen from the soil.

So in the first year you have to water and also will have to watch to see if they need fertilizer.

After filling them up water the "hell" out of the beds to get them nice and soaked.

After year 1 when the rotting process starts taking hold you will start to get the benefits and also as the wood breaks down it will release nitrogen back into the soil and feed your plants.

Cheers!

-Nick

burnerjack01 says: Apr 1, 2012. 1:32 PM
Instead of pocket screws, would using long deck screws straight through be as good?
junewhosews says: Mar 29, 2012. 7:34 PM
I have totaled the diamensions and it comes to 97 1/4 long and 24 1/2 high. How is a 4 x 8 sheet suppose to work. Actually the sheets of Ondura Corrugated Roofing are 48 x 79" at Lowes??????
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to junewhosewsMar 29, 2012. 8:36 PM
Also a 2x4 isn't 2x4. There is something called nominal length. Regardless u can make them even taller as log as u can still nail the material in it doesn't need to be edge tO edge
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to junewhosewsMar 29, 2012. 8:34 PM
If you read the instuctable u will notice that u use a scrap piece from one of te 4x2 ends to complete the 8' run. You can see te overlap in one of the photos and also i illustrated the connection

Also your measurements don't need to have surgical precision. As long as you have surface area to nail the stuff to you are good. In fact I had more problems with them being a bit too short, and this the ondura hanging over a bit then the opposite

At the end of the day do this. Cut a sheet in half. Lay it on a 2x4. Where it ends make mark. Put your brace there so u can nail the ondura on it. Overlap your scrap piece and nail that in to make the 8'

Make your other brace the same distance in so it has symmetry for looks. Put the 3rd brace in the middle so it also looks nice

Anyway just use my dimensions and you will be fine


jeff-o says: Mar 23, 2012. 6:13 AM
www.richsoil.com is down right now. In what state should the logs and sticks be in? Freshly cut, rotting, dry, etc?
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to jeff-oMar 23, 2012. 6:46 AM
A variety of states of wood is fine. Mine was all the way from fresh cut, seasoned for 1 year, and advanced rotting.. Think of it this way... the fresher the longer the effect, the more rotting the more immediate effect
Katzsta in reply to SaveOurSkillsMar 28, 2012. 12:18 PM
Do you have any idea if dried bamboo would work? The 3-5 inch thick kind, not the running kind. I have access to a bunch of this.
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to KatzstaMar 28, 2012. 1:47 PM
Ask on permies.com they would know better than I
qorlis says: Mar 25, 2012. 9:58 AM
I know that exact prices would be impossible to use here because of how much individual stores charge and materials used, however, could you give approximate totals on the materials for constructing each bed? In other words, about how much would I need to spend to build each bed? A range would be good such as: "between $100 to $150".  My reasons are that I want raised beds and I'm comparing material costs.

I'm not asking for costs on tools or what goes inside the beds once they are built. I'm also aware that many people viewing Instructables are not in the US, so these costs may not apply to everyone.  Thanks.
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to qorlisMar 25, 2012. 5:55 PM
Ask and Ye shall receive. Pricing based on 16066 postal code and using Lowes for materials and Tractor Supply for bolts.

http://bit.ly/H8tdh5
qorlis in reply to SaveOurSkillsMar 26, 2012. 9:38 PM
Thanks much. That helps. Here, we have both stores, but we also have a Bolt and Nut Supply store for screws and bolts, etc. The breakdown you gave is very helpful.
daresquid says: Mar 22, 2012. 12:15 PM
"My research indicates that current, modern, pressure treated lumber is safe for use in the garden."

I believe it is illegal to sell the old bad pressure treat in the US. Current wood uses copper or borates. On land they should be fine, but water runoff to a pond could still be a problem. It is a good idea to wear a dust mask even when cutting the new boards. Common concentrations available at a lumber yard are usually meant for above ground applications. You will have to pay extra for higher retention levels suitable for ground contact or ground burial.
IkilledKenny in reply to daresquidMar 26, 2012. 8:05 AM
http://www.gardeningblog.net/2009/04/12/using-pressure-treated-lumber-in-raised-garden-beds/
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to IkilledKennyMar 26, 2012. 8:18 AM
thanks for the link. It's a good rebuttal of the pressure treated witch hunt.

I knew people would flip out about the materials when I posted it. All I can do is roll my eyes and say "Make your own flipping decisions for your life!"

LOL
IkilledKenny in reply to SaveOurSkillsMar 26, 2012. 5:27 PM
You are very welcome and thank you for taking the time to read it.

The 99% are incapable of that nowadays.

It's all about do it for me, including learning the actual benefits/drawbacks of any given item.

Think for yourselves people.
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to daresquidMar 23, 2012. 6:59 AM
You are correct, the old stuff is no longer sold. I'm sure the new stuff is not as "healthy" as virgin cut pine... however you have to balance practicality with your desire to escape any form of toxicity.

Personally I'm fine with whatever trace chemicals might make their way into my garden via the materials I am using. I feel my food will be at a far higher standard, from both a taste and nutrition standpoint than what is commercially available. I've design a system which I feel will be long lasting and low maintenance.

So far I'm very pleased with working at the higher level (2') It's great to be able to stand while gardening. That might just be worth it all by itself.
evad says: Mar 26, 2012. 8:32 AM
Great Instructable! I have be planning something similar to this in my back 40, (40 feet, that is...) for a few years... Up until now, I was going to use the French Intensive plan of gardening. You dig down a few feet, put up walls like you have done, then fill with 1/3 compost, and saturate with water. Over goes 2/3 soil- but I am now going to incorporate the method you show here!

The whole zen behind the French Intensive method is to have loose soil, and water below, so roots are encouraged to grow down, not out. The neat thing about this, is you can plant things much closer together, such as a root crop, like carrots or potatoes, in between the tomato plants or beans. Planting things this close together will reduce weeds considerably- and even if you do have to weed, you are not on your hands and knees or bending way over. I have made my previous beds no more than 2 arm lengths wide- for easier weeding.
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to evadMar 26, 2012. 9:30 AM
Thanks for the comment. French biointensive and square food gardening are very similar. You can think of SFG as the "for dummies" version of what you have described. Basically it takes all the same concepts but adds a grid where you only have one plant type per square. Allows computer programmers like me to have a poly-culture but maintain order.

As far as the bed preperation method you describe goes. I don't see any reason why you can do exactly what you have described except make your first layer logs for hugelkultur.

View the video series i have linked up. You will see Jack from TSP dig a very deep pit and fill it with logs. Pretty much the inverse of I have done w/o heavy equipment


There are pros and cons for going up. On one hand it's a real back saver and I think day to day maintenance is better, on the other hand you need a ladder to harvest your pole beans

Eliminating the need to water your garden is both a time and resource saver as well as maximizing the root growth aspect you have mentioned.

Also with French intensive I imagine you have to recharge it every year, where a hugel bed you only would recharge maybe every 5 to 10 years

Pretty much just add compost to bring it back to level every year... I'd also suggest sheet mulching your garden too... will retain even more moisture and also build soil... how cool!
daveand5 says: Mar 25, 2012. 9:39 AM
Also with the treated wood be aware it IS NOT treated for resisting rot (moisture) just bugs and fungus. Its for above ground, minimal ground contact, with good drainage.
If you don't mind eating food contaminated with bug killer and plant killer, use treated wood. The contamination comes from leeching after every rain. The old stuff was proven to leech, and since only the chemical was changed expect leeching to happen into the soil.
As far as the ondura leeching, It is the same materials your roofs shingles are made of, so if there is harmful leeching, its more than likely too late. But since oil products naturally take care of any contamination (see the BP spill), and grass and gardens grow just fine in old auto junk yards, its probably the last thing i'd worry about in a box like this.
I my self obtained damaged poly floats for docks, cut the tops open leaving a 6" seat around the top edge. I put a clear tube outside to indicate water level, and use a drip system for watering and fertilizing. The water used is collected rain water. These floats can be had in a variety of sizes from 18"x30" to 4'x8' and from 1' to 3' deep. Usually from the manufacturers or dock dealers.
IkilledKenny in reply to daveand5Mar 26, 2012. 7:51 AM
http://www.gardeningblog.net/2009/04/12/using-pressure-treated-lumber-in-raised-garden-beds/
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to daveand5Mar 25, 2012. 6:13 PM
Sounds like you have a nice system. One advantage of not top watering is a larger tap root, which will increase nutrient uptake.

I'm also doing a "larry hall" gutter garden (google it) which will feed from some rain barrels off a, wait for it, asphalt shingle roof :D

Thanks again for the comments.
SaveOurSkills (author) in reply to daveand5Mar 25, 2012. 5:57 PM
People worry too much. I'll put my home grown food up against anybody else's for health and nutrition. Just my opinion. Anyway you are welcome to use the alternative materials if you should choose to do the project. (cedar/metal)
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