Instructables

RGB LED Mood lighting

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Here we have a RGB mood lighting system, this is made to hang on your wall and give you something to zone out on and give the room a nice little glow of changing colors. I had no idea how this was going to turn out, BUT I am happy with the outcome!






 
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Step 1: Parts Needed

Picture of Parts Needed
Alright so below are the parts and the tools I used... I encourage adapting this project into your own style, so you can follow it step by step or use it as a reference to make your own creation!

Parts:

Poster Board (found at Micheal's arts and crafts)

5mm RGB LED's (I bought at www.besthongkong.com, also at Fry's Electronics)

Resistors for my project I used 330 ohm 1/4 watt resistors, but whichever kind you need for your LEDs, how I have found out is by going to http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz which is a LED calculator, you plug in your information and it tells you the array and what resistors to use. (I bought at www.besthongkong.com, also at Fry's Electronics)

Copper Tape (found at Micheal's arts and crafts)

Wire (found at Fry's Electronics, but I am sure Radio shack has them too)

9 volt battery harness (found at Fry's Electronics, but I am sure Radio shack has them too)

9 volt batteries (found at Fry's Electronics, but I am sure Radio shack has them too)

Choice of wood 1x4x8 (Home depot, Lowe's)

L shape metal Brackets (Home depot, Lowe's)

Screws fir Bracket (Home depot, Lowe's)

Fogged Plexiglas (or clear Plexiglas sanded with medium grit sand paper) (Home depot, Lowe's)

Tools:

Wire Cutters
Soldering Iron
Hot Glue Gun
Skill Saw, or Chop Saw
Screw Driver
Drill
Carpenters square or Ruler
techwolf020 days ago

So i started to test my LED's starting with the setup from the top of battery one and i can't seem to figure out why when i only use two lights that one of the lights won't work. Can you give me any suggestions?

I'm using rainbow LED's

UgniusR2 years ago
Nice instructable. How did you secure your plexiglass on the front? Glue? Also, where did you get a 20 x 20, or whatever size you used, sheet of plexiglass? Did you go to Ace or something? I looked on the Home Depot website, but there were only precut pieces and they were pretty exensive. How much did your's cost?
seligtobiason (author)  UgniusR2 years ago
Thank you for your compliments! I attached the fogged piece of Plexi glass with some double sided tape, you can also use hot glue instead. I used double sided tape just in case I wanted to show someone the insides of the project, the tape makes it a little less permanent then gluing it. I used this thinner fogged Plexi glass that is intended to diffuse fluorescent shop/kitchen lights (I actually not sure if the fogged plastic is technically Plexi Glass, but may just be thin fogged plastic). I bought it from Home Depot, but can't find a link for it from their website (sorry), but if you look in the fluorescent light section you should be able to find sheets of it. The plastic is pretty thin so I was able to score it with a pocket knife and then just bend it really carefully and it will snap along the score line. You can also cut it with scissors, but doing that you get these little cracks along the edges, so I would suggest scoring and snapping the plastic. Hope that helps, let me know if you need anything else!
arturo_mc2 years ago
I've finished building the frame and putting it together! This is a very nice instructable, i will surely post pics once its finished since, well it is all thanks to you! :), but one quick question, did you sand the plexiglass? the LEDS are already dimmed with the hot glue, so did you sand the plexiglass as well? or is it crystal clear plexiglass?
seligtobiason (author)  arturo_mc2 years ago
The pexiglass is actually already fogged when I got it so no need to sand, but if you have clear, then you should probably sand it. The plastic that i used is actually a diffuser from a fluorescent kitchen light that I got from Home depot.
Since each LED cycles through the same pattern... this is entirely red when turning on... then green, the blue, etc. Correct?

How long after powering on does it degenerate into a random pattern? Any chance of uploading a video from the moment of powering-on so we can see?

I'm working on something similar, but plan on turning them on at different intervals. This way there is a clearly defined pattern at power, but then degenerates into the randomness as your box does.
seligtobiason (author)  philgainer752 years ago
You are right, they do all start out red, and fade from each color. But I don't think that there is a need to have them power on at different times, it only takes 10 seconds or so for the randomness kicks in so it would be more or less a waste of time.

The LEDs' themselves are not regulated that well when being made so when they fade from one color to another the timing is off a little bit, which quickly makes them off pattern, then leads to the randomness. I hope that helps!
Thanks for the reply!

10 seconds? Wow... that's much faster than I am seeing with mine so far. I've got a lot of 500 here, and in my testing, they seem fairly consistent.... 20 slapped on a breadboard sees about 10-15 of them hold a decent sync for upwards of a minute. Although time-consuming, and if need be, I could test, sort, and group out the ones that appear to have similar timing. Im using 121 (11x11) of my 500 for this project, so I've got more than a handful to pick from.

Like stated above, having the pattern at power-on is one of the main points of my project (through tinkering with adjustable delay circuitry) ... seeing it degrade is part of the goal, but doing so in under 10 seconds will be disheartening. I guess I'll find out more as I progress.

Again, thanks for the reply!
acarballo2 years ago
So how do you turn it on? i mean...do i have to get my hands inside of it and clip the batteries or does it have a button or something?
seligtobiason (author)  acarballo2 years ago
In the Instructable it is just setup to pop the batteries in and out, but that did get annoying so I just put in a switch to the side to turn it on and off.
Im kind of new to electronics, if i wanted to add a switch for both of the circuits (top RGB and bottom RGB) where should i put the switch?
seligtobiason (author)  acarballo2 years ago
Hey there, sorry about the delay in response. So since there are technically two power sources you can't use a standard switch, BUT they do make a switch that has two inputs and two outputs so it really is two separate switches connected together! That would be your best bet, so for a switch just attach the positive wire from the battery to the input on the switch and then a wire from the output of the switch to the positive of the LED! Easy as that!
Hello, its me "acarballo" from before, i changed my email account with facebook and my instructables accounts got screwed, but anyway, thanks for the fast responde, and i repeat, im fairly new to electronics, so maybe you could help me out a bit on this please.

Since my local electronics store only had 16 chameleon Leds (RGB's), i bought 16 and im gonna make it 4x4, but the question is, im gonna have 2 arrays, of 8 chameleon Leds each, Should i use 150 ohms resistors and power each array with a 9V battery? or what resistors should i use? Thanks in advance for your support!
seligtobiason (author)  arturo_mc2 years ago
Hello again, if you are ever in doubt of what kind of resistors to use, you should check out any LED Calculator, my favorite is this one:
http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz
It is nice, simple, and easy to use.  On that note, if your LED needs 3.4 volt 20mA and is being pulled from a 9volt battery you should use 330ohm 1/4 watt resistor for each LED.  I see I wrote 150Ohm resistors in the instructable, but that would be if you wired two LEDs to each resistor, but in the case of working with "flashing" LED's you do want a resistor to each LED.  Sorry for the confusion, and I fixed the mistake in the instructable (oops!).  Hope that answered you question, and let me know how else I can help!
Hmph, using the calculator you provided, and using, 9v as source voltage, 3.4 diode forward voltage, 20 diode forward current mA, and 8 Leds, it tells me i should use 120 ohm at 1/4 Watt for every 2 leds... im kinda lost then since you said i should use 330 Ohms for each Led D:
seligtobiason (author)  arturo_mc2 years ago
Since these LED's are not one solid color they are considered "Flashing" even though they are just fading from one color to the next. So with "Flashing LED's" I have read that if is best to have one resistor per LED, which in this case of 9 volts would be the 330 Ohm 1/4 watt resistor. The confusion of the 150Ohm vs 120Ohm is that 120 Ohm is what is suggested, but I had 150 Ohm on hand so that's what I used, and you can go with higher resistance for a substitute but you should never use less resistance!

I hope that clears up everything, and again, trust the LED calculator, when in doubt with anyone's projects use the LED calc. You never know what the circumstance is with whoever is making the project, my 150 Ohm resistors is a prime example!
Oh sorry, i just read the part where you said that using 150 ohms is for 1 resistor every 2 led, so with that current information i should use 330 at 1/4watt for every led then right?
nmartindale2 years ago
if you're buying all the stuff, except the soldering equipment and stuff, about how much would it cost?

totally loving the project though!!! It looks epic, and I'm totally going to try to do this! Been looking for a long time for a good LED project, and this looks like fun! ^^ Thanks for making this tutorial!
seligtobiason (author)  nmartindale2 years ago
Thank you for your compliments! This is a really fun and entertaining thing to have hanging on your wall! I think the whole thing cost me around $20 bucks, but I think you can get it cheaper, the thing that cost the most is the RGB LED's, so if you can get them cheap you can make the whole thing cheaper! Also when you buy things at Micheal's make sure to look online for the %50 off coupons, helps keep the price down. Hope that helps!
rbartels2 years ago
so does this automatically change colors too?
seligtobiason (author)  rbartels2 years ago
Yes! Each LED is what they call a "Flashing RGB LED" which really isn't flashing as you can see but fading from one color to another. There is a super small chip inside of each LED so it fades at its own pace automatically when it has power.
daop192 years ago
what´s the voltage of the leds that you use????
seligtobiason (author)  daop192 years ago
The RGB LED's that I bought have a forward voltage spec of 3.0V-3.4V Typ, 3.8VMax. which seems to be a standard for the RGB, but when you buy your LED's just make sure to take a look at the specs, because every LED is a little bit different.
hamidogreen3 years ago
Hey do you have a drawing or something to show how you wired the whole thing to a 9V power supply?
Thanks!
seligtobiason (author)  hamidogreen2 years ago
I don't have a drawing, but it is a really simple circuit. There is just a common positive and a common negative going to each LED. Each LED has its own Resistor.

So essentially for each LED you have a Positive wire coming from the positive side of the battery to the positive side of the LED. And then a negative wire coming from the negative side of the battery going to the resistor which is attached to the negative side of the LED.

If that is not clear enough I can sketch something out, hope that helps!
placatecj4 years ago
 Wow man that looks great.  Question how long will one battery power that many LED's?

c
seligtobiason (author)  placatecj3 years ago
I haven't timed it out, but for me it lasted a while, but not as long as I wanted, so I ended up changing it to be plugged in.  To do that just find a 9v power source and connect all the wires in back so that it is one big circuit, then wala!  Never have to worry about using up batteries!
If I wanted to hook up, say, 20 of these boxes together (400 leds in my specific design) . Would a 9v power supply work for the whole thing? I assume not, but I am trying to research the way around it. Would I just need a 9v supply with a high(er) mA?

I guess I am just wondering what an experienced person would do. I am just getting into the LED projects myself. I did make this box already, with great results! Now I want to take this concept and expand. I appreciate the time you put into this! Definitely falling in love with this new hobby.
seligtobiason (author)  tchristensen02092 years ago
I am really glad that you like this, and even more that you are loving LED's! They are so much fun to make things with!

As far as what you are wanting to do, you can use any voltage that will power the LED's. And then like you said just make sure that you have enough amps to cover all the LED's and that you are using the appropriate resistors for the voltage you chose.

When hooking up that many LED's I am sure there is a more efficient way to go about it, I just am not advanced enough in the electronics to know how. But this will work for large amounts of LED's! When you get it all done please post a video, I would love to see it. If you have anymore questions please let me know!
kctess53 years ago
I did something very similar except I used slow change leds and have the squares spaced out and cut them out of a piece of sheet metal with a dremel. Looks super cool with the metal between the leds and also as a frame
CThoma0313 years ago
Hey-
I would like to install this into my car and not have to run off 9 volt batteries, is there a way to hook it up to the car battery?

Ive never worked with individual LEDs before, any change to the resistors or anything else needed for hooking it up to my 12v car battery?

Thanks for your time!
In more detail I would like to do an array of leds that are 9x7 so 63 total. From what i can tell from different calculators and such online its not possible to do that many. Is this true?
seligtobiason (author)  CThoma0313 years ago
Hey there, so I like your idea I am a big fan of lights in and on cars! It is totally possible to run 63 LED's off of your car battery. Your battery is a 12 volt source so you just need to find out how many LED's you can put in sequence/array, and also find out the appropriate resistors for that.

Hooking up the LED's to your car is the same thing as what I made, just using a higher voltage, let me know if I can help you further!
Thanks for the fast reply, going off what you said I think Im just getting the same slow flash ones from http://www.besthongkong.com.

Is there somewhere like a tutorial that you know of that would help me to figure out how many I could run in sequence and the resistors?

I tried looking at other articles on here and everything was like how to hook up 1 or 2 LEDs not quite the big scale Im going.

I also tried using the LED calculator you referenced but the array it shows is only 3 and 4 wide I need 9x7.

Thanks again sorry for the long reply.
seligtobiason (author)  CThoma0313 years ago
Well you can put as many LED's as your battery can handle (don't want to run the battery dead though). But 63 LEDs really should not be a problem. And I would use the LED calculator that I referenced, this is what I came up with when I looked up what you want to do:

Solution: 3 x 21 array uses 63 LEDs exactly

So you can put 3 LEDs in a row with 1 - 100Ohm 1/4 watt resistor, and just duplicate that 21 times and you got your 63 LEDs! Hope that helps!
if you are going to run it from your car i would use 12v RGB LED Modules then you wouldn't have to use any resistors or diffusers but you would have to put brain/controller in it to make it change colors but you would also be able to change the patterns
That would actually be a great idea any idea where I could get those or how much ? Someone else made a great point that the charging voltage of the car is 14v so that would only work safely if I had it running when the car was off but I really want it on when the car is on. I might use this for my next one I'm pretty much done with it I'll post pics in a couple days when installed in the car!
Honestly just set it up like you were going to use a 12 volt transformer, add the correct resistors (easy calculation) and plug the whole thing into a power outlet in the car. If you want to get fancy you could use a voltage regulator like the lm317 and regulate it to avoid fluctuations (but remember 1.5 volt drop)
amish3 years ago
Hey guys! :) I have been looking at this project and IMO, it's just what I need. Would you recommend these LED's? Also, will these LED's start off all being in sync (same colour) then gradually start going out of sync? Thanks for the help! :)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50-Pcs-5mm-Slow-Red-Green-blue-RGB-LED-Rainbow-free-R-/120647874248?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item1c172c76c8
seligtobiason (author)  amish3 years ago
Those look like they will work fine! Pretty much every LED will go off sink with time, unless they are being run by an external connection that is changing the RGB Colors.
brl604 years ago
can you please post a link as to where i could find these on frys thank
seligtobiason (author)  brl603 years ago
Well you can do a search for the materials... not really sure if you are asking me to give you a link for every part, or if you are having trouble finding something specific?
It would help and also help if you told what size the leds you used were
seligtobiason (author)  Munchys3 years ago
Thanks for the suggestion, I added the size of 5mm LEDs into the parts needed!
Thanks i cant wait to do this and im going to combine it with another project to make a table for my living room
pliketiplok4 years ago

thanks for the great tutorial - this is what we came up with. couldn't find the exact substitute for poster board nor matte plexi, so we settled with some sort of see-through polyester. however, we were more than satisfied with the result... greetings from croatia!

(the big panel consists of two smaller, thus the difference under the third line..)
baharini5 years ago
If anyone wants RGB LED's all connected as a set,try this

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.6488
mu0p baharini5 years ago
WOW thanks so much, ive been trying to find something like this for ages! I find it so tedious connecting all those leds, esp since I know nothing of engineering. I wonder if its the slow fading or fast tho?
frollard mu0p5 years ago
The reviews on dx seem to say it 'flashes' the colours, sporadically. :D might be neat.
I have bought it and the LEDs fade for about 7 seconds and do quick 0.5 second flashes, then it just repeats.
awesome heads up BAHARINI!  you rock!

i too have been trying to find battery powered LEDs that do color changes for bike stereos as well to no avail. i was dreading having to go the more expensive and time consuming route trying to learn how to build LED sequencer & multiple blinker circuits on different times.

the price on one of those strings is great too. will test a string to see if i like the way it changes colors. it probably costs more to ship it.

i should stop using search engines to find stuff like that as i ALWAYS find tyhe best links right here!
vr3604 years ago
 first of all.. congratulations for this idea and such instructable! really great! i bought some slow fading rgb leds yesterday and if i power them all at the same time.. at least checking with 5 of them.. they're all too synchronized =§ what do you suggest? do your leds change really "randomly" or they make some kind of sequence? any help would be appreciated. thumbs (both) up! :) 
seligtobiason (author)  vr3604 years ago
Thank you for your compliments :)  But as far as the RGB LED's changing randomly, mine all start off in sequence, all light up red, then to the next color, and after a couple cycles of the colors it is all mixed up.  It sometimes feels like there are patterns, but really they are all random.  Are yours in a pattern after ten minutes?  Also the more you have the less you feel like there is a pattern, so maybe try turning ten on at a time.  Hope this helps, let me know what happens, thanks!
also, before installing, you could always time each LED to see which ones change the fastest & the slowest and arrange them in some sort of pattern eg. fastest changing lights in the center.

color morphing is really cool, but what i like is the intelligent morphing by the long gone homedics light therapy cubes. it really looks cool when such displays are synced and displaying real patterns. i'd like something more dramatic for street party bikes & less meditative.

i bet the patterns look even more random with faster changing LEDs as they would drift faster & you could always mix the two types to break things up even more.
mowen5 years ago
What kind of RGB LED's did you use? slow changing or normal?
seligtobiason (author)  mowen5 years ago
I used slow changing, seems to be a nicer, more subtle effect
do they change autromaticly  by just being connected to the battery or do u need to build a circut in between??? im trying to build a 4x4 version.
seligtobiason (author)  supercj14 years ago
It all depends on the LED's you buy, the ones I bought change automatically, so you hook them up like a regular LED's, and they do the rest!
kally074 years ago
 Please Help!!! I have the majority of my class done building the base and the slots.  I've tried so many ways, but how do you get enough voltage from the 9V to power the leds? I can only get 6 to light up on a full battery.  I bought these RGB slow flashing LED's.  Here's the info that came along.
Forward voltage<= 3.2-3.4
max. forward current IFM +30 mA
If anyone can help I would be so thank-full.  



I just have one question. I'm new in this "LED" devices designing thing so i may just have missed something "obvious". What did u use to cover the front part of the hole pannel? I mean, it looks maybe like some kind of acrylic, but it definetely doesn't look like uncovered silicon-wrapped RGB LEDs to me. I loved ur Instructable, it's awesome, affordable to build and very simple for us begginers. Keep doing more!
seligtobiason (author)  feralpanther4 years ago
The plastic piece that covers that whole front of the box is from Home depot, but can be bought at any store that sells lighting stuff. It is a cover to florescent light fixtures, just a piece of plastic that diffuses the light. So go to the lighting area and look around in the florescent lighting part, you should be able to find some stuff there! If you have anymore questions please let me know, thanks! And good LUCK!
snaky4 years ago
Thanks for this nice tutorial I've created one of my own.

As warning for everybody, use for every led a own resistor to avoid flickering of the LEDs.
seligtobiason (author)  snaky4 years ago
Wow that looks great! Thanks for posting a video!
How do you get rid of your bright spots?
seligtobiason (author)  chrisgsirhc4 years ago
if you take a look at step SIX you can see what was done to get ride of the spot light look, and get a nice diffused glow.
i used hot glue. With this i covered the whole LED. It's a little bit tricky to get rid of some stripes, but when you keep rotating while covering it will do great.
holychachi5 years ago
I love the whole LED idea. I was wanting to make a coffee table with a built in LED checker board. Any idea on how I could build this? I just dont know how to make it touch sensitive....? I appreciate any and all help you guys can provide!!
seligtobiason (author)  holychachi4 years ago
I have been wanting to make something along those lines also, but unfortunately to accomplish that you are going to need to learn how to use microcontrollers... which is when things get complicated... So if you find a way to accomplish what you are talking about please let me know!
narbino4 years ago
What is the point of diffusing the light with glue...does it make the viewing angle wider? Also do these LED's heat up very much...I want to put them on clothing but don't want to overheat myself :) Thanks
seligtobiason (author)  narbino4 years ago
Yes the reason of putting the Glue on it is only to diffuse the light, and LED's in general do not produce heat, so as far as putting them on clothes, LED's would be the safest way to do that!
rondos4 years ago
I like this project and have ordered the LEDs. I've noticed that if I use 5 resistors the net current draw is 100 mA, vs 500mA with a resistor on each LED. what would be the consequences of grouping 5 LEDs and 1 resistor? Will the 5 LEDs flash in unison? thanks for your response.
seligtobiason (author)  rondos4 years ago
I understand what you are saying, I am not positive about the outcome, but I believe they will not flash in unison as regular "blinking" LED's would, but there is a higher chance of flickering when the RGB LED's fade from one color to another. Resistors are cheap enough that I don't see much of a reason to risk the flickering, but you can test it out and see, I would test it all before soldering everything up. Let me know the outcome, thanks! (and sorry about the delay in response)
komokazi4 years ago
I can't seem to find these leds.. I looked at the site you provided and I can only find blinking leds, not the slow fading ones like you described.. ive also searched countless other vendors with similar results.. is there a chance you could provide a part number?
seligtobiason (author)  komokazi4 years ago
Well when they are listed a lot of times it is listed as a blinking LED, even when it is a fading one... so here is a link to the RGB LED, these ones are a little more expensive but good quality and from a site I trust.

http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?cPath=75_8&products_id=512
Couldn't we go as far as to adding a microcontroller to this equation. I have been doing a lot of searching on making a controller for LEDs and I still not having any luck with my searches. Seems very hard to understand which on to use and how to integrate it .
akatsuki6665 years ago
you guys are smart. can i hook up a rgb led in parralel with the different colors suck as: green to red , red to blue . and blue to green pls respond ty.
seligtobiason (author)  akatsuki6665 years ago
I am sorry but I don't quite under stand the question... "with the different colors suck as".... not sure what this means, could you please clarify?
akatsuki6665 years ago
umm wheres the priogramming?
seligtobiason (author)  akatsuki6665 years ago
There is not any programing, that's the JOY of IT!! I bought RGB LED slow flashing, so when power is supplied the LED will fade from Red Green Blue

http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?cPath=75_8&products_id=512
mramsey5 years ago
How do the LEDs know when to change color???? Or to RGB LEDs randomly change colors when power is supplied????
seligtobiason (author)  mramsey5 years ago
Each LED has a mini microcontroller, so when power is supplied the LED's fade between Red Green and Blue and every color in between.
zieak5 years ago
This is pretty cool. Thanks for sharing it!
Phoghat5 years ago
I have got to make me one. I like to tinker, but ptograing and chips leave e cold. I' gonna make this and roll up a fattie.
Doctor What5 years ago
Nice. So doing this. I need to get the LEDs. So here's my question: Did you get slow flashing or just flashing?
seligtobiason (author)  Doctor What5 years ago
I got the slow flashing RGB LED's.... You can try the faster ones, but I figured slow would be the look that I wanted.
Rob K5 years ago
Nice effect with out doing any programing.
Cool project! . . .So. . .what's happening Saturday, who's Claire Larson and which book was your girlfriend (?) talking about? ROFL!
seligtobiason (author)  Transquesta5 years ago
HA HA HA HA, THAT IS SO FUNNY, wow, maybe I should get rid of the sound on those huh? he he he, so funny.
No, no, no! I loved the soundtrack. It's almost like a piece of performance art. Just one woman's humble opinion.
seligtobiason (author)  Rob K5 years ago
Thank you!
amaze15 years ago
My compliments !! Very nice composition and realization way . It can be hanged in home even for all the year, not only for Christmas !
I'm amazed on how you coat the LEDs, I made the same on my instructable
http://www.instructables.com/id/CCCP_Christmas_Color_Change_Ping_pong_lights/
but all was hidden inside the balls and *way* more ugly than yours !
seligtobiason (author)  amaze15 years ago
Thanks :) I took a look at yours and it looks really cool, good job!
richms5 years ago
I would put the brackets on the inside so they are not showing. Also you can cut all the boards to 21" if you want to have a 20" gap in the centre, and just have each one inside the next, and outside the last. Looks like a good result for those LEDs, how bright is it in real life?
seligtobiason (author)  richms5 years ago
Thanks for the advise, but I did want to put the brackets on the outside... I feel like it gives it a more industrial look. And I do agree that cutting four 21 inch pieces of wood would work too, but I decided to cut them 2 X 20, and 2 X 22... To each his own on how to build the frame, there are a TON of different ways that you can make it, so however you would like go for it. I love to see variations, and someone else creativity come through! It is bright enough to put out enough light to see decent in a room at night, and no problem seeing the colors change in the day :)
Scurge5 years ago
OK, this may be a stupid question, but how did you get the leds to change color like that w/o any circuitry other than resistors? Or did you?
jeff-o Scurge5 years ago
The LEDs change colour all on their own.
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