When a Phillips is not a Phillips!

Cross-head, Cross-Point, Cruciform,
Square Drive Screws and Drivers

These screw types have a "+" shaped recess on the head and are driven by a cross-head screwdriver, designed originally for use with mass-production mechanical screwing machines. There are a few other recessed drive screws presented that you also want to be aware.

So, why all the confusion? Why all the damaged screw heads and drivers? Why is this screw and driver thing so awkward? Read on and be amazed while I unravel the mystery of screw drives and present some you may have never seen.

For each screw drive type, from ancient Slot through to space-age Lox we present a quick view of the screw head, the drive name, a picture of the appropriate drive bit, followed by an explanation of the type. Also presented are the advantages and disadvantages of each drive type. Slot type are also included because that is where the screw began and a double slot becomes a cross drive, and the Robertson or square drive enter the story with recent combined Phillips/Square drives. The Allan, Spline, Torx etc drives are not included and maybe neither should the Uni-Screw, it is just so darn new and interesting.

This article contains a lot of information and pictures from the Internet. Maybe it will be the definitive guide with your help it could get close. If you disagree with any of the information or if I missed a related drive you know of, please let me know where I can validate the information. Misinformation, incorrect illustrations, screwed up usage of terms on the Internet and elsewhere is rampant and part of the problem created by so many drives.

First a little background:

A screw is really a shaft with a helical groove or thread formed on its surface. Its main uses are as a threaded fastener used to hold objects together, and as a simple machine used to translate torque into linear force. It can also be defined as an inclined plane wrapped around a shaft.

Every threaded fastener needs a way of turning it. Whether a wrench fits a hex-head bolt or a nut, or it may have a shaped and recessed hole into which a driver can be inserted.

Step 1: Early Screws

Around the first century, screw shaped tools became common, however, historians do not know who invented the first. Early screws were made from wood and were used in wine presses, olive oil presses, and for pressing clothes. Turning the screw was accomplished with a drive rod handle positioned through the perpendicular hole.

Metal screws and nuts used to fasten two objects together first appeared in the fifteenth century.

In 1770, English instrument maker, Jesse Ramsden (1735-1800) invented the first satisfactory screw-cutting lathe. Ramsden inspired other inventors. In 1797, Englishmen, Henry Maudslay (1771-1831) invented a large screw-cutting lathe that made it possible to mass-produce accurately sized screws. In 1798, American David Wilkinson also invented machinery for the mass production of threaded metal screws.

The screw on the left (A) was handmade in the late 18th century. Note the flat spot on the shaft, the irregular threads, blunt tip and the off center slot. The screw in the center (B) is machine made around 1830. It has sharp, even threads, a cylindrical shape, blunt end and the slot is still off center. The screw on the right (C) is a modern gimlet screw, post 1848, with tapered shaft, even threads, pointed tip and centered slot.

Comments

[Bill WW]

Fantastic, thank you! A definite favorite.

Here is my LEAST favorite screw head: The screws that are designed to take either a Phillips #3 or Robertson (square) drive. Some of the new timber construction fasteners, such as Spax, and some of the common bronze wood screws use this "combination" drive. It is my experience that tools designed to do two (or more) things do neither well.

[farve]

Hello, I am doubting what kind of screws has a MacBook Pro.
(I wrote a post at iFixit)

See this photo (big, more here) : http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/D3MMQfb6G3HMrtNk
They don't seem Phillips, may be JIS or Frearson.

What do you think?

Thanks!

[arcticpenguin]

I would agree with them being JIS. I've run into some comments that the JIS do not always have the identifier dot, especially when the screw head is smaller. As well the item shown in the "more here" link is marked "Made In China", JIS would be more likely used there as normal. Further the interect of the X is square and the phillips are rounded for torque-out.
As for Frearson, I've not knowingly seen them, but they seemed to be more a North American form of the JIS.
Being a screw head and not a tool bit it isn't easy to measure the angles of the blades to know for sure.
Thanks for the great question

[farve]

Thanks you for your reply!

So I think I will buy JIS screws.

Thanks again.

[Viaticus]

Excellent contribution! Nicely researched!

[jaysbob]

I had no idea fastener solutions could be so interesting. really cool to know a little about the history of something so many of us either completely overlook or take for granted. thanks for putting this together, very interesting... and useful too!

[perryli600]

firs login in, learn so much ,tks

[rbroaches]

You can add a hex, torx or square shape using a method called rotary broaching. The medical and aerospace industries use this method faithfully.  Here is a great article on how rotary broaching works

[Chief51]

Really good article on the various types of screws Arcticpenguin. I couldn't remember the difference between R&P and Phillips head screws; I just new there was a difference that mattered. I found everything I needed in one article.

[doxsys]

You might need to update this to accommodate Apple's new pentalobular design -- See http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9205659/The_case_of_Apple_s_mystery_screw?taxonomyId=163&pageNumber=1

[arcticpenguin]

While you are correct about the Pentalobular screws, it was not included in this "ible" as the intent was to specifically address the Square and Cross screws only.

Please check my other "ible" titled "When Is A Phillips Not A Phillips Plus So Much More" (a follow-up to this project) which attempts to identify all or at least most screw driver types. There you will find other 5-Lobed screw drives, even a tamperproof version of this security bit.
Thank you

[doxsys]

Oops! Sorry -- I didn't realize you had two, and I'd remembered reading the other (comprehensive) one. My bad.

[TA-125]

Good morning, ArcticPenguin;

From your posting on 2010 February 11:

"I'm almost sure what you refer to as Eiki ISO screws were actually JIS-Type screws with ISO metric threads. Two ways of saying the same thing basically. Similar to if I'd call them Yuyama ISO screws."

From a fading memory, I think your statement is correct.

In about 1965 or thereabouts, the movement toward some standardization in metric fasteners was well under way, and the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standards) people were beginning to align themselves with most of the rest of the world in making fasteners that would be interchangeable with the same thread specifications. The DIN standards seem to be the ones that were most favored and were adopted as the ISO standards. As you mentioned, the main shift in the JIS screws was in the change from the previous JIS thread diameter and thread pitch to the now standard ISO specifications. This affected the smaller size fasteners the most, as far as the JIS screws were concerned. The more common sizes of 6 - 1.00, 8 - 1.25, and some others, were not affected.

One of the differences was in the 5mm diameter screw where the previous JIS Standard of 5mm diameter and 0.75mm thread pitch became the same as the DIN or ISO 5mm diameter and 0.8mm thread pitch.

This is where the distinction becomes important. At this point, to distinguish between the earlier JIS Thread Specification and the newer ISO Thread Specification, they added to the head of the fastener, or the side of the nut, the "dot" or "dimple" or small round recess to show that this is the new fastener, and not the older JIS Thread Specification. The form of the head of the fastener did not change; it is still the JIS head using the JIS tooling for installation and removal. Only the thread form or thread specification changed. This is the significance of the "dimple" on the head of the JIS fastener.

TA-125

[Phillips Fastener]

You may have noticed that the Deck Mate screws in your area are now a star drive. These screws are not made by Phillips the manufacturer of the patented Phillips Square Driv with the blue bit. Home Depot owns the name Deckmate and they have chosen to have a different vendor supply the screws that are inside the box in part of the country. The original, patented Phillips Square Driv screws are available at www.phillipsfastener.com No charge UPS shipping. We are calling them Phillips II Plus. YOu will recognize the drive, the bit and the box.

[E_MAN]

To many words!!!!!!!!!!!! p.s. nice 'ible

[wurft]

How to remove ANY screw, nut or bolt:

Weld a piece of metal on it and just unscrew it using using your hands =D

~hope this helps someone

[ceknight]

Firstly, let me say... a fascinating instructable! Sure I knew there were specialty screws, but had no idea the extent of the "Philips" type screws out there. Sheds new light on why I've had some trouble with odd screws/drivers with what I thought were perfectly fine philips (hmm, or were they?) drivers.

Secondly, in my dozen plus years as a camp ranger and caretaker, I have driven literally thousands upon thousands of these "Deck Mates" and they are my go-to screw, even though they are a bit pricier and I can only find them at Home Depot. I do find that even though they are marketed to be driven with standard philips bits, it has to be a very good bit to have with success with it. Standard square drives are no problem however. Stick with the matched Philips II bits with the ACR and you can't go wrong. Good thing they're included with a full box of screws. I've managed to shatter a few of them driving hard.

[IW5 Industries]

i saw an odd screw not two long ago and kinda looked like this.
an easy way i bypassed it was i took my dremel and a cutting wheel and ground out the "bump" in the middle. Then it turned into a flathead.

[arcticpenguin]

Hey everyone, check it out.  When a Phillips is not a Phillips - Plus So Much More!

Finally published it, waited way too long for a contest to enter it in and finally gave up the wait to share this.

Maybe it can reach fame through your many visits.

Enjoy!  

[catnip4all]

I won't reveal it but the pin head screw takes only three seconds to bypass with a screw driver and something else very common. The screw designer screwed up.

[masterochicken]

a hammer

[catnip4all]

YES. This technique will work even when the screw is recessed 1" under the surface. Even if the screw is hardened. Here's what they can do to solve this. The center stud should be cone shape, not cylindrical. They need geniuses, someone like the creator of the rubiks cube or criminals be consulted to make this kinds of standards.

[masterochicken]

Yeah. I would definitely put criminals and the creator of the rubiks cube in the same category.

[catnip4all]

One day someone stole my license plate held by four large screws with a circle in the center. The car alarm went off and I didn't bother. I didn't know how they took it off since there are no tools in the market to open it. To solve this problem I put cone shape screws with deep thread and thread-lock glue. To top it off, a roll pin was drilled in to lock it in. If you really need my plate you can have it :) Good luck finding a bit to remove that! ...but I wont tell how you can still remove it but you'll figure that out on your own.

[matthewjsmith]

Aren't most fasteners impossible to remove without the matching driver?

[catnip4all]

You can remove all these fasteners with a Flathead screw driver. The hardest shown here is the "Chrysler" Uni-Screw. You need a file for this one. I learn to remove them when I grew up with nothing but a screw driver because we were immigrants with nothing...not because of wanting to break into places.

[swizzle]

With a dremel tool and a metal cutting disk I can turn any screw into a flat head. Works great for snagging neodymiums out of hard drives. 5 seconds of cutting on any screw head is good enough to make the slot you need. Get the heavy duty metal cutters not the thin ones. I always have a problem with ruining my mini screw driver sets. I guess they really aren't made to open beer bottles. 

[catnip4all]

I remove hard drive screws with ordinary flat heads. I don't know whether my flat head is actually normal. I don't see them sell these kind of flat head screw driver anymore. With ordinary drivers, you need to get that initial pop.

[skan]

Hi
I'd also like to know what is the most complete set of screw bits. ???
I've found these:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001OM1KNO?smid=AH1JDG368QYFS&tag=nextag-tools-tier2-delta-20&linkCode=asn
https://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.php/store//c1/120/c2/966/sn/40128
But they are not complete
I'd like it to have the triangular, polydrive, one-way, uni-screw, mortorq, 5-node, Square tamperproof, Phillips Tamperproof and clutch.

I've also look at many different brands and I guess the only way to get them is purchasing each piece separately, but that's too expensive
You forgot the clutch

regards

[masterochicken]

There is an instructable for making a triangle one.

[arcticpenguin]

Wow, best set I found was a 96 piece. But then I wasn't specifically searching that aspect. Might I suggest a set like you mention, plus a good security bit set. These bits will likely fit in place of the most common bits of the set you found. Likely you won't need slots, phillips, hex in a custom specialized set. Read on though. Clutch was not in the original concept of confusion caused by Phillips-ish drivers. Actually there are at least 3 or even 4 clutch drives I've found so far. You might want to bookmark me as I'm now working on a masive re-write which is to include all (ok, well as best I can find) different drive systems. It's going to take me a bit (pun intended) as it will be manytimes this 'ible' in size. I'm only nearing the end of the 2 pointers, I'm already on step 25 Organized from simplest plain round through to most points (lobes, corners etc) I'm already up to the 3 points so far and the 4's are partly done with this Phillips project. May still take a month or few so to complete, and sure would be nice to get it into a contest of some kind.

[cdavisson]

Any information on triangular headed screws would be great too!  Seems that more and more of the things  my kids get have those.

[matthewjsmith]

I think that this is the cleverest desing of the lot, shame that its not mass-market.

[guilfman3]

R&P is still in business, the original building was sold and demolished in 2001, The company moved to Leominster MA. and is still in business barely.

[stvargas]

Have you ever considered putting together a handbook? I'm a Mechanic and was amazed by the number of drivers you wrote about. Yet, there others that you didn't even mention! Also, I sure there are others that neither have seen yet. Kinda screwy, Huh? Thanks for the info.

[arcticpenguin]

Yes have considered it. Actually have written it already. See, I've written a promised followup to this ible. It has about 120 different drives. Just that much work should get entered into a contest here, so as soon as a good one with decent prize appears.... plop I'm in. Publishing date is important as contests want new unpublished works. Once entered or published you will have access to a pdf version, like every other ible. Watch for it. "When a Phillips is not a Phillips and Much, Much, More! - A Continuation of Screws and Drives." Then get all your friends to vote for it. Then enjoy it.

[srunner]

excellent, nicely informative. can't wait for tri-wing, spanner head, bristol, and the various one-ways.

[arcticpenguin]

Thanks... can't wait for a good contest to enter it.

[Yerboogieman]

Once i mounted my stereo with square recess bolts.

[Quarn]

There is also a #4 screw driver who is blue and is used with screw 5/16 inch and more.

[arcticpenguin]

I did run across this since the instructable and it is in the rewrite of all screw drives. Information I found though said it was also black, which I thought really odd. I believe these to be the same tip. Blue would certainly make more sence than a second black for sure. I'm thinking blue is correct, but can't seem to find anything on Google. I've just sent a query to Robertson Screw Company to confirm it. Thank you for this information. Are you Canadian? Do you work with this larger Robertson? Where did you learn about them or where they sell them?

[Quarn]

I'm Canadian but i work for Reliable who is a competitor of Robertson. We often but stuff from Robertson when we are in back order. We have in stock the #4 screw drive and it's blue. (well it might not be an official color, and just be blue lake that for no reason.) The dimension are in the IFI (Industrial Fastener Institute)book (ASME B18.6.3 2002) but it does not specifies color.

[arcticpenguin]

I got a reply from Brian J. Cooley, Robertson Inc., Tools Division Product Line Manager - North America

Your chart listed below is correct. There is a second Black drive (#4 drive) for 16 gauge fasteners. It is rare, but we do still manufacture and sell some #4 screwdrivers and hex screwdriver bits.

Robertson Inc, to my knowledge, has never assigned the colour blue to any drive.

#00: orange - used with #1-2 Screws
#0: yellow - used with #3-4 Screws
#1: green - used with #5-7 Screws
#2: red - used with #8-10 Screws
#3: black - used with #12-14 Screws
#4: black - used with #16+ Screws

Robertson Inc. does not manufacture any 1 pc. bits. All of our bits are 2 pc.

There is also an easy way for consumers to tell if any fasteners came from us. We use the ® following Robertson® on all of the product we manufacture.

note - the comment on the 1 pc/2 pc bits is due to my incorrect photo used in this step. Brian supplied new photos and the step is now correct.

[peter_broach]

A similar design to the Torx design can be found in the ISO fastener standards. It is referred to as hexalobular or six-lobe.

[Gecik]

In the 1970s and early 80s -- back when "movies" were strips of photographic film I repaired those movie projectors. Eiki was a Japanese company with very good, easily maintained 16mm projectors used extensively at colleges and universities (at least in the USA). Eiki projectors used what they called "ISO screws" and which sound very much like your JIS description. The ISO screws were difficult to remove with a Philips screwdriver, but were a breeze with the ISO screwdrivers supplied by Eiki. These screwdrivers also worked well with Philips. I had to purchase ISO screwdrivers through Eiki; a company in Kobe, Japan manufactured the tools. After the big earthquake in Kobe, the manufacturing company did not rebuild. The present-day Eiki has no historical knowledge of the ISO screwdrivers or that they had even used these screws. The "ISO screw" that I remember -- and still see in VCRs (soon-to-be-extinct also) and other Japanese manufactured goods has what I would describe as a "dimple" or a depression/dot between two sides of the "X." I lost my notes on how to regrind a Philips blade to fit these screws. Any suggestions? This was a great article! When I saw it I immediately read it to see if you had encountered the "Eiki ISO" and I also learned about things I haven't seen. Thank you!

[arcticpenguin]

I really like your post as it has me thinking hard and searching.

My experience is with a medication dispensing machine made by Yuyama of Osaka Japan. After servicing almost everything medical and laboratory related, and up until 6 years ago I had never even known about other kinds of Phillips, then during the service training on these units along came JIS as they called it. Each screw has a dimple which I take to understand to indicate that the cross-point head is not a Phillips. The screws are also metric for sure.

We're using JIS screwdrivers available at RC Helicopter hobby shops as that is a common problem with the RC Toys. Most helicopter blades appearantly are held on by JIS screws. Phillips just tears the recess apart.

Further I hunted the net to see about the ISO cross-point screws you mentioned. I can't find them anywhere, just nothing. I did find a lot about ISO metric threads. But never in reference to the head drive recess. Also nothing about ISO screwdrivers as I'd expect.

I'm almost sure what you refer to as Eiki ISO screws were actually JIS-Type screws with ISO metric threads. Two ways of saying the same thing basically. Similar to if I'd call them Yuyama ISO screws.

Unfortunately googling screw heads in several differing searches I could not find a decent picture of the dimple on the head. I'm attaching a pix I took of a few of mine.

Thanks for the information, I'm in the stages of a re-write covering over 100 different screw recess designs (for those that thought they had an extensive bit collection LOL).

[ggarduno]

Very good article! When are you expecting to release your re-write covering the other 100 different recess designs? Any specific ~ date?

[arcticpenguin]

Still have a bit to go, but having said that it will be during a contest I'm sure. Way too many hours input to just pop in for a sticker if you know what I mean. I'm sure one will come along shortly that will suit it nicely and be applicable to foreigners too.

[Calochilus]

re # 10 As I understand, the fundamental quality of Phillips screwdriver bits is the taper on the driving faces which allows the bit to "cam out" of the recess at an appropriate torque setting with automated machine driving. As driving with a hand held bit (either simple screwdriver or electric) cannot guarantee a precise downward force, the chances of stripping the recess (or damaging the bit) are increased markedly. The ISO, JIS and Pozidrive bits, on the other hand, have parallel faces on the driving flanges, thus will not "cam out ) but will break the recess or the bit, or strip the thread, if excessive torque is applied. Thus it would be reasonably easy to re-profile a parallel sided bit (ISO, JIS or Pozidrive ) to make it fit Phillips screws but exceeding difficult to parallelise a Phillips bit ( I know because I just tried on an old Phillips bit, you would need to be very desperate) It would be far easier to file up a piece of annealed tool steel rod to the right profile and temper it (or anneal the old driver, re-profile and re-temper)

[scrapper666]

Your text says this screw is based on a series of hexagonal recesses, but several of your diagrams show a pentagonal structure.

[benthekahn]

He later states that "Other recess forms can be used including pentagon and heptagon to provide high tamper resistance, and these can be tailored for a single user to give total security."

[peter_broach]

CNC machines often use rotary broaching tools to make forms like these in custom screws.

[ste5442]

Nice instructable, there are actually a lot of screws there which I have never ever seen!

PCBPolice Electronics Forum - we need some users....please!

[Fasteners]

Awesome article, people rarely realize how many different screws there are.
Fasteners

[Meichx]

Although it sucks that Phillips lost his patents in 1949, the patents were filed in 1936, meaning that his "exclusive" protection would only have lasted until 1956 anyway.

[Meichx]

I'm a little unclear why no one has copied the Robertson design... patents in the US only last 20 years. The design should be in the public domain.

[Audey]

There is a screw in the telstra box outside my house that is like a tamper-proof torx driver. It is a star with 5 points and a cylinder protrusion in the middle. I tried to describe it the best I can. I have looked everywhere for a matching driver but cant find one. do you know what it is?

[camiller]

Googling "Five Point Torx Security Bit"

yeilds:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/22-9795

[Audey]

no shipping to aus, but thanks.

[lordzion]

I have seen this screw many times in small appliances and you describe it right but I do not know the name, this topic blow my mind at the diversity of drivers, the question come to mind why didn't they stick to what works?

[arcticpenguin]

I'd love to help. I gather you are in Australia? Here in Canada we don't have Telstra boxes around that I know of. Can you send me a close up picture of the screwhead, or a clear drawing? I'm having difficulty imagining it. If Telstra is a brand name rather than a generic Telecom term there could be a specific exclusive tool required. One of the reasons I didn't include much tamperproof is because you can get custom tools, screws.

[Audey]

Yeah australia. Sorry, It's not the neatest drawing, I would take a picture but the best I have right now is my phone and it's crap. Telstra is the main phone company, they own all the lines. they used to be state owned but now they're private and crap. you can get into the box anyway but I was just wondering If you knew where to purchase a driver? With the drawing, just Imagine that it is a perfect star with rounded edges. Thanks

[Audey]

Ahh, Image fail.

[arcticpenguin]

While Torx has rounded machining rather than the straight lines, I'm understanding that would be much harder to draw. Try web search for Torx Plus. Normally Torx is 6 point, there is also a Tamperproof Torq with 6 point and pin but recently there are a lot of people finding Torx Plus with 5 point plus pin. Let me know if that's it or not.

or try here...
www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1147533 for a possible discussion on it.

[Audey]

BTW: 5 stars !!!

[Audey]

Yep thats the one, http://www.wihatools.com/700seri/716_IPR_serie.htm only availible to licensed service technicians, and the forum link you posted says they're difficult to get... oh well.

I have always wondered, why is it called tamper-proof if there is a pin in the middle?

[danlab]

Its called tamper proof when it has the pin in the middle because that just means that most people don't have the right drivers to fit the screws and can't get them out without drilling or other methods which make the tampering very evident.

[Audey]

ha, thanks.

[Nollijible]

I used to work for what used to be the largest fastener distributor east of the Mississippi. Had I known all this then we might still be in business. I found this highly enlightening and plan to post it in my home shop for future reference. Great "ible"!!!

[LennyNero]

This style of head is not designed for driving but to be encased in an injection molded plastic or die cast metal part. The odd head shape promotes good grip into the casting and prevents the screw portion from pulling away. I see these a lot on the stud portions of multi post terminal strips.

[arcticpenguin]

Which head style, the Lotus Head?

[LennyNero]

Oh, apologies, yes, the lotus head is the type I was referring to in the above comment. I didn't realize that the comments go with the article, not the individual slides.

[WurdBendur]

They do go with the individual step, but the first step shows all comments. For easier access, I guess, so anyone looking there won't know where it belongs.

[NCRatSniper]

I love my LOX bit, it cost 2.50 but well worth it! Never strips, or walks.

[b-train]

WOW, thats a great instructable, i knew there were loads of variation but not with near the amount of information youve given, cant wait to see your sequel, keep em coming

[inputs]

You should also add polydrive. It's similar to Torx, and is used on the head bolts for certain VW engines (as I was greatly dismayed to discover). Wikipedia has a blurb.

[Fasteners]

This is all extremely interesting... I also did not know there were so many variations.

[Fasteners]

I agree with Spindrifter... If anyone has an answer to his question bout reverse drivers, please leave a comment. But quick question, if you have a reverse screw driver for one way security flatheads, doesn't that stop it from being a one way screw? If the tards stealing your license plate get a hold of those, all will be for naught, am I right?

[The Spindrifter]

I just want to know where I can get a universal set of *all* known security bits. I do have an extensive collection of the more common ones, especially in computer/telecom use, but some of the more bizarre ones (pentagon head? seven lobed??) still elude me. Granted, I won't be disassembling any satellites any time soon, but it would be fun to have a "reverse" driver for those 'one way security flathead' screws that bathroom stalls are assembled with. I had to use those to keep 'tards from stealing my automobile license plates, and it sucks to have to Dremmel or tap them out every four years for a new plate.

[LloydCFerguson]

Google "tamper proof screwdriver" I have the Whia set which covers most fasteners and has some pretty high quality Phillips and Pozi-drive bits to boot. I also have one one of the inexpensive 30 some-odd bit sets. The "reverse" driver for the bathroom stall screws is the one with the two prongs and the recess in the middle, it surprised me how it worked (doesn't seem like it would just by looking at it).

[dlblair]

Well now I understand. I have had screws fall off and some so tight... I also stripped some screws and blamed it on the bit. I should have blamed the US ;-) I am going to check my bits and see the difference. Thanks for the info.

[LowEnergy]

Nice work. Crossed slot, with a driver to match, has more advantages than you list, but I guess you were thinking crossed slot with a flat-blade driver?

[whit3rd]

The Reed & Prince tip isn't blunted, so won't fit 'normally' in a Philips #1, #2, or #3 screw; anyone who pays attention to the feel of the screwdriver will not mistake it for a Philips. Alas, I once met a technician who claimed "I can loosen any of these with (holds up a Philips #1 screwdriver)". People like that bugger up screwheads and give all the fastening systems a bad reputation.

[Plasmana]

Great instructable!! But, on step 22, there is no title...

[arcticpenguin]

Thanks for helping me fix that. I miss these details after seeing it for too long.

[Plasmana]

No problem!

[bloodniece]

I usually take a Dremel to the security post and grind it down. You don't have to grind it all out, just enough so that your tool kind find purchase and torque.

[scrapper666]

The screw driver winds itself out of the screw so the screw head would not be ruined or break (not brake) off.

[foolthrottle]

Don't forget the Hi Torque (coin slot) commonly used on US fighter aircraft (F-101, F-4, F-15, A-10, etc.).

[tallmanbaby]

you write - >>>A screw is really a shaft with a helical groove or thread formed on its surface. however you can purchase twin threaded screws, so technically this is not true. it is a shaft with at least one helical groove. Otherwise wonderful stuff, much appreciated. cheers Peter

[The Lightning Stalker]

Isn't this just the same thing as Philips square-drive?

[arcticpenguin]

Need to know which Step # you are talking about?

[The Lightning Stalker]

I posted it to the Quadrex, step #20. For some reason Instructables doesn't show this.

[gentry]

If you are viewing the instructable one step at a time, the comments stick to the step they were posted to. If you are viewing the instructable with all steps on one page, the comments are much more confusing. So there's the only reason I've found for viewing instructables one step at a time.

[scafool]

After all of that I wonder why we don't just used nails instead. I have a little box with at least 60 different types of those little 1/4 inch insert bits. Many of them almost look the same but they are not. There are also Clutch tip screws, Torx, Allen and Spline drive screw tips. There are screw drivers for triangular recessed screws, pin drives, and other odd shapes too. Even with that I still run into fasteners which I have nothing to match. I think it is all just a conspiracy to sell more screwdrivers.

[fernblatt]

Indeed, there are too many to mention. I have several pieces of gear that use Bristol (tm) spline screws - I think Bristol has several varieties, with IIRC with from 4 to 8 splines. (or maybe just 4 and 6) The Bristol looks like a Torx at first glance, but is an SAE-sized (non-metric) square-fluted spline. And I've seen several other varieties of spline screwhead at one time or another in various vintage electronic and mechanical that looked to be different from either Torx or Bristol or any of the above.

[arcticpenguin]

So are a Bristol and a Spline the same thing or is Spline just the generic term for the type of rib. Wondering about the Fluted to. Having a tough time confirming these on the web so far, but I will..

[fernblatt]

Yes, if it has square splines is the same as a Bristol. I think the recesses in a Torx, etc are called splines too, but AFAIK only Bristol has 6 *square* flutes. Torx and others are point-shaped.

I have an Xcelite set of Bristol wrenches here, 99PS60. I think the Xcelite/Cooper description is "Bristol spline" drivers.

[arcticpenguin]

I'll bet most of the 60 tip types are like-new, never used.

[scafool]

Yes, or used only for one specific machine from one specific manufacturer that only needs 2 screws loosened to take off an inspection cover once a year...

[Fast Eddie]

Agreed. Just today, I drove 20 "Robertson" screws. Got them at HomeDepot (US company) here in Toronto (Canada). Drilling downwards on a sheet of Birtch Lam, every screw fell of the driver. ??? Its funny that I read this, not 4 hours after I thought my bit was ruined. Damn you knock-offs!!!

[killrsheep]

OMG this is an AWESOME awesome article, really a must read for a lot of us on instructables, i always wondered about those weird drivers i have now i know they're for pozidrive and square drived screws THNKS A BUNCH!... karma points 4 u and a fave

[LloydCFerguson]

Great article, I look forward to the sequel, particularly something about Torx fasteners.

[berserk]

The bit in the picture in step 12 seems to be the same as the pozidriv bit in the next step... is that intentional?

[Joe Katz]

Thanks for an excellent article. It also explains why, in the late 1950s, the first Japanese motorbikes that came into the US were so frustrating to work on. The case screws looked like Phillips but all a Phillips driver did was strip out the recess. The tool trucks sold a lot of impact drivers - 'cause an impact would get 'em out even if the bit didn't fit all that well.

[gentry]

As a 10 year old kid (lo these thirty years ago), I scrounged an old non-running Honda 90 with some kind of already stripped not-quite-Philips screws holding the engine case together. It was possible to get some of them out by gripping the head with Vise-Grips, but others were in too tight a spot. I also wasn't very good at drilling out screws yet, and didn't understand that you only had to drill the head off, not drill out the whole damn screw. I managed to get together the $15 it took to buy a hand impact driver from Sears and managed to get the case apart, but I spent some more hard-earned money on (very exotic at the time) metric allen (hex) head screws putting it back together. I note that hand impact drivers from Sears are still about $15. I also ended up having to learn to use a lathe and get a tungsten carbide (again, ooh, exotic) bit to cut down a too-wide gear for the transmission, since 1st gear had been stripped of half its teeth, and the right replacement gear wasn't available. (Honda had cleverly made the newer first gears wider, since the older ones tended to strip.) Lessons learned: 1) I didn't like philips screws (probably the wrong lesson, I now realize), 2) impact drivers are pretty great, 3) there are a lot of different ways to do the same thing, and 4) a motorcycle that you have had to wait a year to ride is pretty sweet.

[Realityindreams]

what about the triangle kind? the ones that NDS uses.

[gentry]

Re: The Philips II section. I notice you also call these "Deck Mate" in the description, and that's what I remembered. They're sold at Home Depot, where each box comes with a matching bit. They are significantly better than low-quality philips screws (i.e., the ones you buy by the pound), but I've also found that good quality deck screws with ordinary philips heads are pretty good. The two advantages I have found to the Deck Mates are that you can drive them a little bit offcenter (good for kids) and the bits last longer and are less likely to shatter than philips. They're a bit expensive, but they have probably saved me as much time in not messing around with stuck/bent cheap screws.

[lordzion]

Here is a machine screw they use in Canadian prisons, I don't know the name does anyone know, thanks Mike

[arcticpenguin]

Usually called a spanner or "Snake Eyes", and I don't want to know how you found out they use them in jails. LOL Thanks

[lordzion]

Here is two more for your collection, Mike

[LinuxH4x0r]

Great guide. I never would have known the difference between most of these. 5/5

[arcticpenguin]

Thanks for your appreciation. In fact so many compliments are arriving I'd like to thank you all rather than each one, for taking the time to respond. I guess I hit on a good idea here. I'll take ideas under consideration and quite possibly you'll see a re-write someday incorporating a lot of it.

[stagewarrior]

Rybczynski, Witold. One Good Turn: A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw. New York: Touchstone, 2000. Good read on topic. It mentions some of the patent and economics of why we have so many of these darn things. "Screw your courage to the sticking-place, and we'll not fail," from Macbeth can go with your obscure party conversation and anecdotes about screws...

[lordzion]

You might consider these, Mike

[lobo_pal]

Two things. First of all, I love that you said mechanical screwing machines. Second, I had no idea that their were this many, props for knowledge. How do you even know about all of these?

[arcticpenguin]

Started by writing about the 4 I did know about. Phillips, Posidriv, JIS and Frearson. The rest came out of days of Google. This ible would not have been possible without a worldwide web. Many of these I've not seen before. Searched further for each new one or term I found. It just grew a life of it's own. Definately a story needing to be told.

[lobo_pal]

I hope you submit it to workshop of the future.

[arcticpenguin]

When I read the perameters for that contest, it leaves me with the impression that I'm off track for this one. Maybe if Instructables has another Tool Month, or Tips contest. Likely a great time for presenting the project part 2, all drives.

[lobo_pal]

Well, if it's half as interesting as this one, I hope to be made aware when that one comes out.

[arcticpenguin]

I'll try and contact each respondent, because it will likely be in a contest and all the extra votes would be so nice.(smiling)

[lobo_pal]

You can count on me, providing it isn't an overwhelming failure.

[Outcast]

Picture no. 3 is wrong?

[arcticpenguin]

Picture 3 of which step?

[Outcast]

Step 7.

[Outcast]

Do something on hexagon cap screw or screw threads. Any of it will be awesome!

[nmeeker]

When working in Taiwan on some computer hardware I asked one of the local engineers for a phillips screwdriver. He just kind of stared at me and asked "What is that?" I showed him the screw head and he said, "Oh, you mean a plus driver. We use plus and minus screwdrivers. Why do you call it a phillips?" I couldn't answer him back then, but now I could. I still think calling them plus and minus makes a lot of sense. Thanks for great article.

[technodude92]

does anybody have any info on the tamper proof screws i often see in bathrooms here in the US. It appears that any slot head driver can drive them in, but when attempting to remove them, they are designed to cam out. Im sorry if this description is confusing but i would really like to know what they are called

[arcticpenguin]

They are called One-Way Tamperproof Screws. Tamperproof will be included in a re-write due to popular demand. Stay tuned.

[stib]

Wow, now I can really impress people at parties: "..so I said, hey, that's not a phillips head, thats a BNE-FL-22070!" *guffaws all round* On bicycles there are often adjustment screws that are a combination of cross and slot ( I guess the idea is that you can use either tool). Just thought I'd add that one to the mix..

[arcticpenguin]

LOL. And when they all look at you weird you'll know inside that's because they didn't know this info. Future re-write should include combo drives.

[Rectifier]

Great! I never knew about many of these. I work in a mechanical trade and shamefully I usually just ram my "phillips" into any cross-shaped screw. I do have a "special phillips" that fits japanese equipment really well... but I didn't buy it for that reason. I just set it aside when I found out it was the only one that fit well. I now believe I came across a "Mortorq" recently. I thought it was just a very badly stripped phillips, probably compounded by the fact that someone had tried to remove it with a phillips... so I drilled it out and replaced it with a Robertson, hah!

[usarmykid92]

damn man, thats really intereseting. thanks for sharing!!

[The Lightning Stalker]

We should really have adopted the Robertson screws here in the US. They're just superior in every way.

[The Lightning Stalker]

Robertson and square drive are different! Did not know that Thank you for sharing this great information!

[lordzion]

I am a woodworker and swear every time I have to work with a phillips head screw, the robertson a much better solution was invented by a Canadian and the Yanks would not adapt it because of the patient.

[ootsae]

Thanks I needed that.

[LloydEwing]

This is great information! It leaves me wondering what happens to old instructables -- are they forgotten and then they eventually just fade away? It seems like this could be turned into a great article on Wikipedia, where it would be easily found and maintained into the future. 5/5

[axiesdad]

Not exactly a "how to" 'ible, but absolutely fascinating to an old tool junky like me. I was aware that there are many types of fastener heads (and have cursed a good many of them) but never ran across a descriptive article like this. Thank you for your work in collecting all this info; I hope you will continue your research and provide us with a sequel that talks about Torx, etc.

[arcticpenguin]

Sequal in the works. Not a "how to ible" but more useful than "how to make headlights out of coconut shells" LOL

[hamjudo]

Very useful! A mystery explained. For many years, I had thought that the camout with Phillips head screws was a bug. In step 7 I learned that they were designed that way to deal with the limitations of powered screwdrivers of 70 years ago. There are special drill bits for removing damaged screws, I think they are marketed as "easy-out" bits. I think of tamper resistant and "total security" screws as damaged by design. If I don't have the right bit, the easy-out bits do the job. Some quote marks around the more outrageous manufacturer quotes would help keep our blood pressures in check. In step 26 there is a paragraph that ends with the phrase "total security". Phrases like that always inspire me to yell at the writer. Quotes would make it clear that you're not the writer, just the reporter.

[donutbandit]

At the sewing machine shop, we constantly run into an odd screw that has a slot with a very shallow Phillips type cross in the center. Phillips drivers camout and destroy the interface easily. The slot is quite narrow, and it's hard to find a slot type screwdriver large enough that has a thin enough blade to turn them. Do you know anything about this screw?

[pravardhan]

Hey, what about those Mobile Phone Screws -T6, T8,...

[arcticpenguin]

They would be Torx. Not covered by this ible yet. Stay tuned for more.

[teddlesruss]

geez - there are ten zillion philips type fasteners, heaps of "me too!" types of design clones, and more, in your article, which is brilliant by the way - but no Torx drive srews? Nor, come to think of it, any hex key drive or spline key drive fasteners. Could there be another article forthcoming?

[arcticpenguin]

Yup, due to sevral feedbacks, but it will take a little while. Thanks for appreciating it. A thank you to all who appreciate my ible. Just can't answer everyone. But know I thank you all.

[bumsugger]

The Definitive Cross-head screw guide,AT LAST.........................nice one arcticP !!

[jedi pen-gui-n]

i had no clue there were so many philips like screwes nice ible

[chotzeny]

Amazing I always suspected companies are trying to S me over with many different heads. Now I know there is actually a purpose for this. Thanks...

[F-zero]

I didn't know there were so many types of screws!

[ReCreate]

To unscrew any screw you could cut a line with a dremel and unscrew it with a flatl! The flat works for everything

[ssnipe]

wonderful information. best resource i have found on phillips, only wanting a little more info on other types of tamper proof 5/5

[arcticpenguin]

I'm sensing interest in tamperproof, and in a future re-write that may well happen. I tried to avoid the tamperproofs because they are easy to recognize for the most part because they are distinct.

[ssnipe]

LOL yes easy to recognize but that only makes them even more "taboo" I guess ether way great job

[DavidKaine]

I know many of the descriptions were copied from product literature, thus explaining the overenthusiastic labeling of the pin-type security screws "completely tamper proof!!!" Pin type screws can usually be removed by using a hammer and an awl/nail/knife/etc and knocking the pin one way and then the other until it snaps out, thus leaving you with the non-security version.

[arcticpenguin]

Not brochures but mostly advertisement on websites, so close enough and therefore it was difficult to find stuff on dissadvantages as one can imagine. Near the end of researching I started to notice more the terms Tamper Proof, Tamper Resistant, Security, Access Prention, etc.

[DavidKaine]

NBD, I just mentioned it because I was looking to find some vendors who sold certain styles of screws (the NCR ones specifically) and noticed that some of the descriptions came word for word. This was a fascinating guide, I loved it.

[Whatnot]

So why exactly do you include phillips and pozi but not torx and such common ones? If you need a reference: wikipedia.
That's to all other people saying they 'never would have know', visit wikipedia once in a while too and pick up some stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screws

[arcticpenguin]

I was trying to limit the scope of the project a bit, preferring to sticky mainly to Phillips. Thinking I was such a smart guy because I knew 4 similar ones; Phillips, Posidriv, JIS and Frearson. I'm thinging a future re-write is in order including all drives.

[scafool]

Oh my, that would be an extremely long instructable. You did very well just covering the Phillips and Robertson clones with a few of the other oddballs thrown in.

[roboguy]

You left out one of the most important features of Robertson drive: the square hole is tapered like a Morse taper. This means that you can place a screw on the screwdriver, and no matter how you hold the screwdriver (even if you point it down), the screw will remain attached. Also, the yellow ones are becoming common on small (e.g. #4 and smaller, like 4-40 machine screws). I didn't know that there was an orange size, though.

[Unventor]

I'd always wanted to give out post-project presents like a special, limited-edition commemorative screws and drivers. One step closer, thanks!

[arcticpenguin]

You could likely get a custom security screw and driver design made.

[locofocos]

Don't forget Nintendo screws! They're pretty annoying to remove cause they have like 3 protrusions instead of 4 like a philips.

[arcticpenguin]

Try checking an ible on making a screwdriver for this type of screw by Adrian monk.

[p9inter]

good guide however it's difficult to picture the bit shapse without a head on view.

[arcticpenguin]

Your right it would help. Problems with head on view 1) I don't have all the drives and screw types to consistantly photo. 2) Shiny screws and bits don't photo well. Hopefully the black/white thumbprint helps visualize the screw head. Those that look identical likely do look identical.

[nibbler125]

now witch one is the kind they use in those damn mc donalds toys

[dark sponge]

Triangle ones (like the square drive, but with 3 points instead of 4)

[Notbob]

I've been able to get those triangle one out with a slot headed screw driver before.. so you don't necessarily need a triangle headed bit. Also if you had a grinder, you could grind an over sized Robertson to fit.

[Lithium Rain]

Not to spam, but I did make an ible on how to make a screw driver for this exact thing.

[arcticpenguin]

I'm going to go read it tonight. Nice idea for an ible.

[Lithium Rain]

Thanks! Hope you enjoy it. :)

[wupme]

Is that the same one as one the NDS ?

[Nesagwa]

Yes, they are called Tri-Wing screws and you can buy the screwdrivers to get them out at most hardware stores.

[doommeister]

That is some article, I am impressed at how long you must have spent writing about screws still not mentioned my favourite screw driver the "Brumagem" screwdriver it works on all types of drive.

5/5

[arcticpenguin]

Had to look that "Brumagen" one up and I'm thinking of including it in a future re-write. Hmmm, will need a picture of the head pattern. LOL

[mattyk6]

I have been trying to find the name of the screw used on my hot tub for the last six months and no one has been able to help me. No one from Lowes, Home Depot, or any of the specialty hardware stores around here (I even tried a screw company!). BTW, it was the Lox screw that I was looking for. THANKS!

[arcticpenguin]

A week ago I wouldn't have been able to help you either.

[tercero]

Great article. Personally, I loathe Phillips and never ever use them in any woodworking projects when possible. I prefer the Canadian designed Robertson. Better torque characteristics, less slippage.

[arcticpenguin]

You may find the Phillips much more tolerable if you use a JIS on them like me. No more stripped heads. As a Canadian I agree Robertson is the best, so many of the others types just solve issues Robertson never had.

[ironsmiter]

Lotus Head Drive.... It is basically a standard cross slot screw, as it looks, but the slot is produced by a "much cheaper process". Basically, the head is split by a chisel. The THEORY is that, by not removing any material, that the head retains the full material strength. simmilar to how a hold that's been punched and drifted by a blacksmith is stronger than one that has been drilled out. It can also be done by a machine that costs signifigantly less(both to buy and to operate) THere is a slightly modified phillips bit that is used to drive them. It has a matching taper. The use for these screwes is mainly for machine assembly. the constant pressure of the machine driver spindle prevnts "skipping" of the bit(what would cause a stripped head, if using hand tools to drive the screw). The example you show is also a "quickthread" allowing it to be driven at twice the depth per turn, as compared to a normal screw. It is also a self-drilling model. Primarily designed for use in plastics. you'll find similar threads holding almost any cheap plastic radio, light fixture, toy, together. These are all "improvments" to speed up manufacture, and use of the screw. How successful it is at that, I do not know. Just hope YOU never have to remove one of these. Trying to get a staandard Phillips bit, even if you modify it for the flat bottom profile, to grip on these screws is a ROYAL PAIN :-(

[arcticpenguin]

Excellent! Thank you. When I get a moment I'll blend this into the article. Of course I'll also list you in References as well. I was surprised to not find anything on Google, except the one reference I used. Would love a picture of the drive bit if posssible.

[Robotrix]

Hey, great idea. I saw somewhere a while ago that there were different types of cruciform screw drive systems but i guess i didn't care enough to search it out. Then this instructable came along and wandered into my rss feed and here I am! Only one thing I noticed out of place: if you look in the Lox step, you'll notice that Lox claims to have 8 contact points and then two sentences later it's 12 contact points. I am sure i don't care which it is, but i can't abide indecisiveness on things. great job!

[arcticpenguin]

Quite right, pardon my blonde moment.

[the_mad_man]

who had enough time to think of all those kind of slots? 5/5

[arcticpenguin]

Someone like me, who had enough time to write about them.LOL

[mrbob1000]

my god! you have shown me a whole new world! this is really quite cool, now i know what kinds of screwdrivers fit wat and i now know some screwdrivers i know are mis labeled.

[arcticpenguin]

My 'new world' in this project was that I thought I knew all "4" types. Phillips, Posidriv, JIS and Frearson. Boy did I learn.

[fwjs28]

wow....i never knew there were so many screws.....5/5

[arcticpenguin]

Oh, and there are several more, this was mostly about the phillips/square types.

[deastructionator]

you forgot the most annoying those triangles in almost all happymeal toys

[dombeef]

Yeah Soo hard to take apart

[joosh]

Awesome guide. I would have never cared to look all this stuff up myself so I would have never learn any of this if it wasn't for you. 5/5

[thearchitect]

Excellent work, essential guide! Thanks a lot!.. K.

[rimar2000]

WOW! lol I didn't know all this stuff. Thanks.

[sonic_dan]

5 stars!

[scafool]

Excellent guide, 5/5

[lowercase]

Excellent! Very in depth and useful guide, thanks.

[Trans_Am]

...and the scary part is, this only covers philips-style screwdrivers. There are so many more out there...

[the_mad_man]

*jaw drops, hits the floor and keeps going*

[danlab]

wow, very informative and I never new there were that many different screw heads