where to buy solar cells in the uk?

Can anybody help me to find a seller of monochrystaline or polychrystaline solar cells in the uk. there are some on ebay but none offer a gaurantee. i would like to buy in person if this is possible. many thanks for reading.

Asked by john.the.plumber 7 years ago


Can you make a larger solar cell out of smaller ones?

Is it possible to make a larger solar cell out of small ones, such as those from solar calculators? I understand you can chain smaller cells into panels - would it be possible to use this same premise to recycle the incredibly small output from a calculator cell into something actually useful?

Asked by Tetsuoh 3 years ago


Can I use liquid silicone to secure solar cells to a sheet of plexiglass?

Ok so i have the bright idea of sandwiching my solar cells in between 2 sheets of some sort of acrylic material, coating everything with silicone to secure and seal it. anyone have any experience with this? will the silicone block any light? i'm also welcome to ANY and all suggestions regarding DIY solar power!!!!! 

Asked by matthewb1427 8 years ago


How can I check the efficiancy of my 15 years old solar modules?

I have about 100 solar panels of 53watts from Arco solar about 15-18 years old and were in working up to five years back but since like 2004 or so are in a junk yard now I want to buy these but first I have to check min efficiancy as I am a instrumentation instructor in a technical Institute so, I can under stand your answer very well tell me in detail. also how can I draw IV curve for above with coventional tools like DVM some engineered load or so.

Asked by emadjohar 9 years ago


How UV resistant is wood? Answered

I'm making a USB solar charger intended to last 20 years. It will have no batteries inside, just a voltage reg and a zener diode. The solar cells will be wired together under glass, not epoxy (for better lifespan). I want the frame to be made of wood, but how long will that last in direct sunlight? This solar charger will contain no plastics, polymers, or resins...so my only choice for a frame is glass and wood. THANK YOU SO MUCH!! -Nepheron PS. I chose wood because it is very opaque, and I reasoned that it may be fairly UV resistant... But IDK.

Asked by nepheron 8 years ago


Solar Versus Wind Power: Which Has The Most Stable Power Output?

Due to the larger magnitude of solar PV power output fluctuations relative to those of wind at time scales shorter than approximately 31⁄2 hours, the costs of large scale solar PV integration are likely to be larger than those of wind.via Treehugger

Posted by ewilhelm 10 years ago


Small PV Solar Cell Charger Questions

I volunteer as a ski patroller at a ski resort in northern Vermont.  Like many other ski resorts, we monitor Family Radio Service (FRS) Channel 9-11 for skiers who might get lost or hurt within our resort's boundary or sometimes outside the resort boundaries.  Due to the FCC restriction that FRS channels are limited to only a half watt (0.5w) they have very limited range.  So in order to monitor channel 9-11 effectively, we keep FRS radios plugged in all over the mountain in all of our ski patrol huts where there are always patrollers on standby in case of injuries or lost skiers.  One of our huts does not have any electrical power, so we are constantly cycling freshly charged radios to and from that hut, almost every day.  It would be a lot less of a nuisance if we could charge that radio with solar power.   On the wall outlet plug for charging station for the radios we use, the label says the power output from the ac/dc adapter says it outputs 9VAC 200mA.  I assume this means 9 volts alternating current at 200 milliAmps.  Could I simply find a PV solar cell that outputs 9 volts a/c and connect it to the wire that runs into the radio charger?  Most of the PV cells I found online have a watt rating, but I'm not sure if that matters or not.  Where is a good place to find a specific PV cell for this purpose, for reasonable price? If anyone person in the Northeast is able to offer significant help for this, I could probably take care of one free lift ticket for your time and help.  I'm also posting an image of the wall outlet plug label and charging station. Thanks, David

Posted by dtepper 6 years ago


DIY Screen printed solar panels Answered

I bought a manual from Aqua-luna.org about making solar panels. I feel like I've been misled. The first two solar panel technologies are not viable for home power generation. The screen printed PV panels may be. There were listings of materials and a copy of patent application along with some hand written notes. Not much else. I need to know how to layout the collectors that are printed on the substrate (glass) how to mix the materials that are being screen printed etc. I would be helpful to have a ball park figure on the output so that I could determine if it will be cost effective. I have fabrication and screen printing facilities and will be making panels for personal use. I need a 3-5 kw system (big I know)

Asked by daveh189 8 years ago


a very hot 9V

Alrighty, sorry for the noob question, but i am very very new to this, i'm tryin hook 3 10mm LEDs to run off a 9v battery, i hooked it via the LEDcalc with correct resistors, it works just fine, but when i try to add a on/off switch into the mix the 9V gets very very hot. could it be ... the switch i am using... the 24 gauge wire to connect it all.... how i have connected the on/off switch into the mix , instead of connecting it straight to a battery i have added extra wires and put the switch in between the battery and the start/end of the LED chain... should i bump it down 6v instead with the correct resistors instead of the 9v also if you could explain why the 9v was heating up so much that would be great too....

Posted by pixelglasses 9 years ago


what is a silicon? is it a steel or liqued? it use in pv cell.?

WHAT IS A SILICON ? IS IT STEEL OR LIQUED WHOM USE IN PV CELL?

Asked by shroff_nt 8 years ago


Concept of the system for protection against hail tracking PV power plants Answered

Hello, I have a big request for you. Do you have something of the literature on the "Concept of the system for protection against hail tracking PV power plants" (desirable and protection from the snow; and wind). The respective literature I needed so that I could write a seminar and thus lay the course Project- power plants at the Technical University. This is literature that I found: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274657 , but i need a little more information about "system protection, as well as system control and external anti-interference measures. External interference includes weather influences, such as wind, sand, rain, snow, hail, and salt damage"->this text is from the link above. Thank you very much! Kindest regards! Mario

Asked by MarioM28 2 years ago


Build PV solar panels from broken solar cells

The sun's energy may be free, but solar panels can be quite expensive.  Still hoping to get off the grid? VIRON has a great Instructable, How to make PV solar panels, teaching how to make your own from broken or surplus solar cells! From the introduction: In essence, this involves ways to connect cells, which may produce more or less than one volt, and not only try to increase power output but also decrease the load, that is, efficiently conserve the energy whether it is meager or significant. For example, even the weakest solar panels can run watches, calculators, radios, charge batteries, and if a computer were specifically designed to, it would be as solar-powerable as a calculator. Check out the Instructable for info on finding and foraging usable solar cells, instructions on preparing different types of broken cells, tips for getting more power out of your panel, and instructions for wiring the whole thing up to power your devices. Inspired? Planning to try piecing your own solar panels?  Already off the grid, and planning something even better?  If you do, be sure to post an Instructable so the rest of us can learn something new. This post has been sponsored by Pepsi. The Pepsi Refresh Project celebrates the people, businesses, and non-profits with ideas that will have a positive effect on our world.

Posted by canida 8 years ago


MATLAB Simscape Power Systems & Electronic ?

Hello! I need tutoring MATLAB Simscape Power Systems and Electronic. I am working on a project in which I am trying to simulate Photo voltaic panel charging battery with controller ( dc-dc buck-boost converter) with Maximum Power Point Tracker and without it. I need to calculate efficiency for both cases. I have stared part of it with searching online Please, if you can help let me know

Asked by skumu 1 year ago


How i built a pv solar cell ?

How can i make the solar cell from diode?

Asked by haibat haibat 5 years ago


Wiring Multiple Turbines and PVs

Just a little worried... how do ya'll go about wiring multiple power sources together? I have been long under the assumption that your solar array will only put out power of the weakest panel. If I come across 3 different 12v panels, that have differing amperages, and have a wind turbine on a 12v car alternator, that ranges in power output, how can I wire these to make these most effective? Is there a charge controller out there that can manage multiple power sources? Pardon me if this is stupid. I just cant seem to get off the ground with these simple questions. i guess the most effective q to ask is: What do you do to wire multiple power devices of different outputs into a single battery bank/ grid tie system? Thanks so much for all yall's brilliant help. -Luke.

Posted by ineclipse 7 years ago


linear strip photovoltaic panels

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find strip PV (photo voltaic) panels. I have small pv panels 3in by 3in but i am looking for longer strip pv panels maybe an inch long by however thanks Jon

Posted by gwydionn 6 years ago


How do solar junction boxes work?

With solar systems, you often see a junction box that apparently is necessary equipment for a solar installation. What is it? It has diodes inside, right? Why do you need it?

Asked by Udon 7 years ago



Hacking the PV Solarpower into a mere electrical outlet plugger

Is it possible with system of PV solar panel (and inverter to convert dc into ac current) with reasonable amount of power to reduce electrical bill simply by plugging it into the house electrical outlet instead of complicated wiring into the house? I want to see if it possible to share solar power panel sitting in the front yard with neighbor by taking turn with use of plugging it in the house outlet

Posted by Engineer my brain 10 years ago


Solar PV tracker that can be built by kids

I am looking for instructions for a group of 12 year olds to use to build a small device that is capable of tracking a light source the way that solar PV panels can be made to do. Only one of the kids has (minimal) robotics experience, so this would have to be a very entry-level project. There are some great projects on this site but they are way beyond our capabilities. Any help would be appreciated!

Asked by Codys Mom 6 years ago


can I poll the energy from my 25w solar and 12v windgen with a circuit to charge a SLA??

Building a wingen will put out like 125ma and I have a PV panel puts out like 250ma can I combine the two and charge my 12v sla simultaneously? I know Ebay has dual PV  and Wind charge controller but any other circuit to do this ?

Asked by celalboz 8 years ago



what is the peak sun-hours for detroit? Answered

I'm trying to determine return on investment for a PV system on my house in Ferndale, MI, a Detroit suburb. I need to better understand how much sunlight I can count on in a given year to determine if it's feasible to install a grid-tied PV system in place.

Asked by hobbssamuelj 9 years ago


Battery Charging Light Circuit

Dear All I am building a small scale PV system and I want to implement a circuit that will allow a LED to light up when the battery is being charged from the PV cells Currently I have a general purpose PNP transistor with a 2KOhm resistor for the base and a 1KOhm resistor in series with the LED, however when running this simulation the LED will not light, even when I lower the values of the resistors Any help would be much appreciated 

Posted by EmptyCoffin92 4 years ago


Modifying camera?

I have an old analog cartridge camera Panasonic PV-IQ203D and would like to modifie it to logical imput.Thanks:Mogho

Asked by xinematik 9 years ago


CFL power factor and how to correct? Answered

I have installed solar pv on my house and using a killawatt meter I have been checking the power factor and they are pretty bad .7.  Residential metering dont charge for power factor but when the solar pv is operating I believe the losses are coming from the pv power generated. Does anyone know of a CFL with a good power factor? I have heard that the power factor for the CFL's could be corrected with a .50 cent part. I believe that would be a capacitor but what size and how could you add it?   ?

Asked by Riksmgb 8 years ago


How do i connect bypass diodes to my series/parallel PV panel?

I have 20 solar cells of 0.45V at 100mA i have connected the first string in series so this will give 1.8V at 100mA with 5 strings horizontally this total of my PV is 1.8V at 500mA my question is how do i connect bypass diode to this it is a 4x5 panel at 180*130 a diagram will be great thanks

Asked by jagrai 4 years ago



how do you modify a alpha trooper cs-18 with no PVC pipes??

Its pretty self-explanatory.

Asked by the dashing hero 6 years ago


How to use the solar PV Panel ??

WHAT I have to do.. How to charge battery and give all such loads. How To make Solar Panel Really Working for my home

Asked by engineer.arpit 5 years ago


Most efficient way to recover heat from 130 degree F water and transfer this heat to 140 degree F water?

I am making a solar still and I need to recover as much heat as I can from the 130 degree F water (bringing the water temp down to near ambient, 72 degrees F) and then transfer this heat to 140 degree F seawater. I have a limited amount of solar collectors to heat brackish water, send it through an evaporator tower and then a condenser tower to make fresh water. As the fresh water goes through the condenser it gains a great deal of latent heat, thus the 130 degree F water. In order to increase production and regain otherwise lost energy I am trying to recapture a portion of this heat to further warm up the brackish water (currently at 140 degrees after exiting the evaporator tower) before being further heated with the solar collectors. I am operating off grid, so the solution must utilize solar heat or PV panels as the power source.  Does anyone know of a heat pump that operates best in this temp range? What about using TEC (aka TEG, TEP or TEHP) to perform this task? Is there a better or more obvious solution that I am oblivious to? Any advice would be much appreciated. 

Asked by MichaelMichael 5 years ago


Agua-luna solar panel ripoff

I bought a manual from Aqua-luna.org about making solar panels. I've been misled and ripped off. The first two solar panel technologies are not viable for home power generation. The screen printed PV panels may be. There were listings of materials and a copy of a patent application along with some hand written notes. Not much else. There's absolutely no way that a person with electrical and fabrication skills could make printed PV panels from this document. I tried there msn address, no response. I posted a message in their forums, no response. Beware.

Posted by daveh189 8 years ago


Which frequency in the visible spectrum does a photovoltaic cell convert into electricity? Answered

Plenty on info out there about how a PV cell does its job but so far i've found nothing on which light frequency is responsible for initiating the process.

Asked by Dark Solar 8 years ago


PWM to MPPT solar Charge Controller

I have an Hybrid Solar Inverter with 50A PWM solar charge controller inbuilt into it. It works on 24V battery bank. I am having 800Watt of PV module installed in the system. As my inverter is having PWM charge controller, I am not able to harvest maximum of power from panels. I want to know that, is there any arrangement or device which can be put in between PV panel and my Inverter which can increase efficiency or can act as PWM to MPPT converter for my Inverter? My Solar Pannels generates often 39V but I couldnt utilize the surplus power as it stepped down to 24 Volt.

Posted by Shashi BhushanS 3 years ago


How much psi can these objects hold...

How much psi can a: 1. Coke Bottle 2. PVC Pipe 3. Metal Pipe safely hold? Is there a formula that I can use to calculate any vessel's psi capacity? Thank You!

Posted by La Tour Rouge 8 years ago


Solar panel design: Optimal thickness and air-tight or vented? Answered

Is it better to minimize airspace inside a home made solar panel, and should the panel be air-tight, or have ventilation holes? I'm trying 1/4" depth from the cells to the Lexan cover. It will be used in a climate that ranges from +35C in summer to -35C in winter.

Asked by 9 years ago


Is it safe to put electronic hardware inside of PVC? Answered

I am designing a tactical airsoft flashlight, and want to build the first prototype in a 1 inch diameter PVC tube. I was wondering if it was safe to put electronic hardware inside of a PVC tube, or if was dangerous or could destroy the hardware. Thanks!

Asked by fearmonger12 7 years ago


Solar Switching - Have an idea? Answered

Hi All, I have an PV grid system newly installed, now I have looked at how to store the excess power but want a cheap controller to switch on the battery charger when I export, now there is gadgets with clamp meters but the can range from £180 to £300 quid which isn't cost return effective in my opinion, anyway being new to the PV world I'm currently monitoring my system and noticed every time I export my electricity meter has a solid red LED light up, this makes me wonder could a simple LDR circuit be made to after say 5 seconds of a solid output of the LED switch on a relay which in turn controls a battery charger, I want the delay in switching cause when I'm using the grid it blinks and don't want it switching on and off at that point, Hope someone can help, Many Thanks in advance, Matt

Asked by Matth354 3 years ago


The Eco Powerplant

  Creating a Permanent IcePack in the Eastern Sierra A permanent Ice pack in a north south valley of the Carson Basin could insure constancy of water supply to Fallon area farmers and ranchers. Creating a permanent icepack in Northern Nevada is technologically and economically feasible, given the right location . This project will be solar powered, and serve as a peaking unit during times of high electrical demand. This technology will produce energy from solar by PV Panels mounted on a giant spanning grid over a north south valley in the eastern Sierra. A properly excavated mine could also serve as a location. Proximity to gas distribution and an electrical sub line are also important . This facilities' economic importance as a producer of LNG from surplus stock cannot be overstated. The upper part of the oval consists of a space grid spanning the valley or excavation. It is covered with steerable PV panels. The PV panels may be inserted into the grid or used to create liquid air , which in turn can be used to produce LNG. The thermal energy storage as liquid air would be contained underground in the mountainside itself.In Northern Nevada, these mountains are usually solid rock formations imbedded in sandy detritus, an excellent insulating material. Vast amounts of wind power are also available during spring and summer.   During summer peak demand, liquid air could be re expanded to run generators.   And most importantly , this plant will produce as a by product of its operation large amounts of water in the desert by freezing the ground on which it operates. Wet air passing over an expanse of frozen mountain rock will condense, and either form ice or rain. The production and maintenance of a liquid air production and re-expansion facility will also produce large amounts of water during times of high humidity.   Suitable locations in the Eastern Sierra would by necessity by close to either the Truckee or Carson River Basin.    

Posted by Mud Stuffin 5 years ago


Lost the wind generator here

I saw an instructable about a wind generator here last month. I bookmarked it to show to a friend so we could build it. Now I go to show it and I can't find it. I believe it was called the chispito wind generator. It features 3 blades made from big pv pipe. Can anyone tell where it went. Do they take down older instructables periodically? Can anyone tell me where I can find this if it's not on this site anymore? Thanks

Posted by diane4m 10 years ago


Can Anybody Top this Crazy Green Idea?

What is it? it's the side view of a solar peaking plant. With PV panels on the roof of a giant structure that would produce liquid air during periods of low demand, and augmented by solar work like a big energy storehouse that would be called upon during peak demand. During peak demand the liquid air would be vented into the atmosphere, causing it to snow in the desert in the summer.  It could also cause the formation of a permanent snowpack downwind of its' location.  

Posted by Mud Stuffin 5 years ago


Could I use a couple sun traking silicon solar cells to power several garden lights? Answered

I saw in https://www.instructables.com/id/Solar-PV-tracker/ that a sun tracking solar panel raises output by 30-50%... I also saw garden lights with really small solar panels on them... So i came up with an idea to use a couple solar panels to power a whole set of garden lights! Is this possible? Note: Is this idea cheaper than buying several solar powered garden lights?

Asked by Houdinipeter 7 years ago


Does anyone know how much weight can 1" OD PVC pipe can handle? Thank you in advance.

Im thinking of making a canoe and kayak stand out of PVC. The stand would look like a modifyed 'H' with the top span enclosed as well. The cross memebers would be approx. 36" long. The weight of the canoe is around 75 lbs. and the kayak weighs 47 lbs. All of the weight will be distributed over 3 H frames spanning 8'.

Asked by Ginger Magnus 9 years ago


Self-Solar Powered LED Flashlight? Answered

I know it would not be 100% efficient, or even close for that matter. But I was wondering how much battery life could be "recycled" by directly projecting the light from the flashlight onto the solar panel(s)? Say at a 45 degree angle beneath the light. Obviously this wouldn't be a high output LED, and another question at that.. Would a Red LED be more efficient or would the PV cell not do so well with Red LED? Thought this would be a neat idea even if it would only recycle 5-10% battery life. I would love for someone to implement this idea into a project and see how efficient it is.

Asked by xSoFx 7 years ago


What things I should consider while doing a risk assessment of a project that involves a solar simulator? Answered

Hello I am involved in a project related to PV panels laminated with structured glass. I have to do a risk assessment i.e the things that can delay my project. The things that are involved in it are 5 Solar panel samples (will be laminated outside the country) Sun Simulator (often busy) Need to measure some I-V curves I have got identified some risks but I need to get in depth. Any help in this regard will be really helpful Thanks

Asked by raishikoh 6 years ago


Is My Solar Panel Design ok to achieve 60A charge rate for 1000AH 24V battery bank?

Please I need your advice on a propose project in my office. we have an Inverter (Xantrex TR2424- 24V 2.5KVA) which charge rate capability of 70A. The Inverter battery bank is rated 1000AH 24V total ( 2V 1000AH x 12 in series). I am sure of 5Hrs sunlight a day. and I want my project to charge the battery at 60A rate per hour. Our DC-current consumed when on Inverting mode is 26A DC (Approx 3A-4A AC inverter output). Our ac load on the inverter output is around 540W. In my design as attached, each group of PV (4pcs in parallel) should produce around 30A). total amperage should be around 90A. since during the day (sunny) we will be draining 26A continously from the battery, deducting that from the total pv current, we should have around 64A left to charge the battery bank. My request: kindly look into my propose design and advice where am wrong or need correction/adjustment and recommend with your experience. I assumed a DOD of 60% on the battery hoping to charge the battery to full capacity within 5 hours of sunlight daily. we have standby generator which we can power on to charge the battery in situation where it is cloudy. Thanks for your anticipated recommendation & advice

Asked by jisaac6 1 year ago


Advice needed - DIY off-grid solar electrics DC charging via AC from generator

Hi all, new to this forum... I'm looking for some advice regarding an off-grid electrics setup i'm running. Currently i have a PV solar panel charging a battery bank through a charge controller. It's a 12vdc system. For 240vac i use a small (500W) inverter. For larger loads i use a diesel generator. The inverter is basic but very high quality sine wave, it doesn't do any charging nor does it automatically switch the load between the AC of the generator and its own AC (i do this manually). In order to recharge my batteries when there isnt enough sun (which is often!), i use a simple AC powered charger that isnt specifically designed for off-grid/solar applications. In other words it is not "intelligent" and doesnt have bulk, float or equalization settings - it's just a DC charger that gives decreasing current as the voltage of the batteries rises. In fact it is very prone to overcharging if left charging for too long and will keep putting current into the batteries even after they've reached 15.5vdc or more. My question is this: is it a good idea to feed the DC charging current from my AC-fed charger into my solar charge controller in order to allow the charge controller to regulate and/or limit the charge as appropriate? I did this for a period of time and it seemed not to cause any problems. However, my AC charger did eventually blow its recrifying diodes although i'm not sure if this was due to a separate issue with the AC power coming from my generator which at the time was an old one and may not have been giving proper AC voltage (it may have been low due to engine speed problems). The solar charge controller is a PWM type. The way i had it set up was the DC from the solar panel and the DC from the charger in parallel to the charge controller. If there is no difference between the DC from the charger and the DC from the solar panel, i don't see how there could be any problem as it amounts to the same thing as having two 12v PV panels in parellel. However, what i dont know (due to insufficient technical knowledge) is whether rectified DC is any different to the DC from a solar panel. My setup is as follows: 1 x 200W 12vdc PV panel 60A tristar PWM solar charge controller 2 x 6vdc Trojan t105 batteries wired in series to give 12vdc Mastervolt 500w pure sine wave inverter (12vdc in, 240vAC out) SDMO 6kva diesel generator (240vAC) Wolf Max 50 battery charger (AC powered 40A DC charger)

Posted by RionZion 2 years ago


No Electricity and No Stream; How Can I Move Water From Well?

I have raw land, in a State Park, which has no access to electricity or running water (stream or otherwise).  I am trying to build an aquaponics farm, however I don't have access to electricity for a well to deliver water to the system, or to the air pumps for aeration.  Any advise?  I need to know how to get water out of the well, and how to aerate the water for the fish and plants, without electricity.  I looked into Solar PV and wind turbines, and they are out of my budget. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Update *03/08/13* Thank you all for the wonderful help and suggestions.  I am going to try several of these to determine the best fit.  Also, please keep the suggestions coming, I will continue testing methods, even after setup.

Posted by msilverstein1 5 years ago


Why Solar Panel Voltage Drops When Connected The Radio? Answered

Hello, I own a Brunton Solaris 6 solar panel with the power rating of 12v 6W and short circuit voltage of 19v. We were living together just fine until I got a Yaesu Vx-8dr Radio. It charges on 12v 0.5A AC adapter. I decided to charge it with my PV but when I connect the panel voltage drops under 12v to 9v and Radio doesn't charge showing a External DC tag which indicates the lower voltage. The only time I get a charge with this setup is when the panel oriented to the sun perfectly in high solar conditions which is too perfect to sustain. I tried to wire it with 80 Ohm resister to limit the current but didn't help. How can I stabilize the voltage and also carry the solution in my backpack? Thank you for your attention and help.

Asked by LongLongBow 6 years ago


Solar Concentration?

I wonder if anyone has tried this, using either a solar cell, or joule thief powered LED in something like a torch head fitment  with a solar cell capping the end of the torch head such that the maximum amount of vsible light is falling on the solar collector and none is going any where else. Although direct sunlight may be ok to power a PV, because of local weather it could still be described as diffuse and tricky to get a constant intensity of light where it is needed. If it were possible get a gain in efficiency this way it also could mean that you are not constrained by the amount of area you need to lay out panels to catch sunlight, the collectorsand lights could be stacked vertically in enclosed units.Apparently PV'sare most efficient in the visible light spectrum which reduces concerns of radiation (UV or IR) If efficiency and power could be increased in this way small units could be joined in series or in gradually  increasing size to power requirements.

Asked by Nowandthen 8 years ago