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Just HOW contraversial is this really? (Also: The Dunkis's Flat knex pistol review.) Answered

I know this subject has been brought up before, but I'm the first one to actually have video documentation on this topic to my knowledge: 



While I'm at it I might as well review TD's Flat knex pistol because I don't feel like making a separate topic for that:

Design- 7/10.  It succeeds at being compact and flat but this results in some tradeoffs, such as a tiny handle.  Bullet lock does not work too well, the ammo falls off given a good shaking.
Range- 6/10.  About 25 feet with oodammo, with 2 #64's.  Any more bands, and I have problems pulling the trigger.  I'm gonna go easy on this rating because it's a compact gun for showing off.
Comfort- 7/10.  Sure the handle is flat, but it's also tiny and pretty hard to grip if you have larger hands.  Also the pin tends to hit my hand a bit if I'm not careful due to this.
Innovation- 8/10. It's the first truly flat knex gun, but it also sacrifices functionality.
Trigger- 8/10.  It blocks near the back of the barrel, but the part you pull breaks easily with more than 2 bands.  It's comfortable though and the spacers don't fall off.
Overall- 7/10.  It's a novelty show-off but nothing too powerful.  Great for stealth if you ever needed to hide it.

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TheDunkis (author)2011-03-24

Already posted the story on youtube but I'll give a more detailed description here.
So basically I got into K'nex all because a friend of mine made these launching devices out of pen parts and rubber bands. Man did these things get range. The only problem is that they were like bows in that you had to hold them back and that was tricky to do under the table or for making surprise attacks at each other. But the main thing is that I wanted to also learn how to make them because my friend was scoring like $1-5 a piece! I ended up coming across K'nex guns and built my own small block trigger to bring to school. I always POed my friends because I could fire it with one handed discretely under the table (boy does that sound wrong...) and my friends kept trying to tell the lunch supervisor what I was doing. I admitted I had the K'nex gun (she didn't do a thing about it) but she never saw me shooting it so I couldn't get in trouble. Much lulz I had. I should've tried selling them but that was back when I had few pieces. Overall, it's a toy, you most likely won't get in a lot of trouble for it. The cool thing is that if anyone catches you, you can quickly disassemble it and be like "gun? What gun?"

Anyways, thanks for the review and careful with what you do. (rhyme unintentional)

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DJ Radio (author)TheDunkis2011-03-25

Why do you always say stuff like (Boy does that sound wrong...)? Less people are gonna notice it if you don't point it out.

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TheDunkis (author)DJ Radio2011-03-25

Because someone, that one person will point it out (and you're one of them usually >_>) so I always beat to the punch.

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DJ Radio (author)TheDunkis2011-03-25

Hardly anyone would see that when they go through a huge wall of text.

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Mepain (author)2011-03-02

>Just HOW contraversial is this really?
Apparently it is very controversial.

Also, greentext doesn't work on ibles.

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DJ Radio (author)Mepain2011-03-02

Guess it is looking at the comments. What's Greentext?

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crestind (author)DJ Radio2011-03-20
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crestind (author)Mepain2011-03-20
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Kiteman (author)2011-02-28

It's a sad indictment on a nation when bringing a very toy gun into school is seen as an act of rebellion.

Land of the free
?


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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-02-28

. The "very toy gun" in the video was shooting hard projectiles rather far. Definitely in the "you could put someone's eye out" class of toys. It was neither a non-shooting toy nor a water pistol. And not something to cry "Over/mis-use of ZT!" over.

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DJ Radio (author)NachoMahma2011-02-28

Very far? That was a BLUNT round, one that doesn't injure people, and it was not far at all. Probably 20 feet max in the video. A rubberband+paper hornet combo is more powerful.

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NachoMahma (author)DJ Radio2011-02-28

. How much does your projectile weigh? 10-15 grams? I'm guessing you have a muzzle velocity of 30-40 m/s. That's enough energy to cause pain and possibly injury.
. If the toy you showed is verboten, I feel safe assuming that a paper hornet would be also. Especially in the hands of hooligans with a history of disruptive behavior.

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DJ Radio (author)NachoMahma2011-03-20

You're overestimating. It does not weigh that much, and does not have that kind of velocity either. If it had a 30-40 M/s velocity, it would fly much farther than shown in the video.

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

In the UK, toys like that in school don't get a blink from teachers, unless they are disrupting a lesson, even with our crazy gun-laws.

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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

. Yet they freak out over DIY edible panties. Strange lot over there.

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

You're working on a small sample, and the "freak out" they had was not about the panties being on the site, but being in an email sent to minors.

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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

> You're working on a small sample
. Almost like someone indicting a whole nation of over 300 million ppl based on a few extreme examples of Zero Tolerance, ain't it? ;)

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

Are there any non-extreme examples?

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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

. I'm quite certain there are - they're just not as "newsworthy". Who cares if a kid got a reasonable punishment? :)

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

If it's reasonable punishment, then it's not ZT.

A child having a toy gun confiscated for disrupting a lesson with it, that's reasonable.

A child being expelled from school under their anti-fire-arms rules for bringing a drawing of a gun to school is ZT.

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Lithium Rain (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

>If it's reasonable punishment, then it's not ZT.

I'm not sure this is a good definition. Honest question - can you point me to something definitively defining ZT as "a student is expelled for any infraction"?

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Kiteman (author)Lithium Rain2011-03-01
There is no specific set of rules that I am aware of.

ZT is when every perceived infraction of a rule is punished to the maximum extent allowed, no matter how minor.

Take at my school yesterday - a child dropped a stink bomb in the library. Under ZT, that would warrant expulsion under rules banning children bringing hazardous substances to school. Under the reign of common sense, the child made a formal apology to the librarian, and promised not to do it again.

Have you seen this?

School officials ... told the boy's mother that a child who brings candy to school is comparable to a teen who takes a gun to school.

 

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DJ Radio (author)Kiteman2011-03-02

Might as well tell you that after you first linked me to that site around a year ago I subscribed to his newsletter.

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Lithium Rain (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

I'm just not convinced that the extreme examples are anything but that - extreme. There are silly rules in American schools, no doubt about it, and draconian enforcements, but I'm with Nacho - I don't quite see why we're discussing a small sampling of the data in question, rather than the whole. Reasonable instances of "Zero Tolerance" are not newsworthy, and therefore garner little to no media attention - does the guy who writes thisistrue.com talk about cops who give a speeding ticket to an intoxicated driver who is going 30 mph over the limit?

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NachoMahma (author)Lithium Rain2011-03-01

> I'm with Nacho
.  Oh, dear. Then I must be wrong. <snicker>

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Kiteman (author)Lithium Rain2011-03-01

But that, in the context I am using, is not ZT, that's normal rule of law.

ZT would be getting a ticket for DUI because you have beer in a shopping bag in the boot (trunk) of a car capable of going 30 over the limit.

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Lithium Rain (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

...

But that IS an example of zero tolerance. It's an instance of not tolerating the undesirable behavior. I don't see what differentiates zero tolerance from regular rule of law/district regulations, except the extremes to which they are carried. I agree that extreme punishments are stupid, but don't believe they are the norm, and don't think a toy/knex gun ban in schools is unreasonable.

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NachoMahma (author)Lithium Rain2011-03-01

.  The words "Zero Tolerance" have been appropriated by one side of the discussion. There is not a lot wrong with a ZT policy per se, it's the execution that occasionally fails miserably. Being expelled for having a loaded handgun at school falls under ZT but is not unreasonable. Being expelled for having a crude drawing of a handgun is ZT as Kiteman uses it (I will agree that it is unreasonable, but not that it is necessarily the fault of a ZT policy, only how it was administered).

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

It's the administration of the policy that I am mainly going on about, but some of the rules themselves are appallingly written. Colorado's ZT rules mandate suspension of students who "carry, bring, use or possess a firearm or firearm facsimile at school".

A school official who does not suspend a child for carrying a K'NEX gun (I don't know where "Neville" is) would themselves be breaking the law.

ref.

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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

. But we were talking about a specific case. Why would you carry us so far off topic? I've read/listened-to many of Mr. Cassingham's essays and am familiar with his articles on ZT. He makes some excellent points and shows some good examples of abuse, but, let's face it, compared to the population involved, to number of incidents of outrageous enforcement is very low.

> Colorado's ZT rules
> I don't know where "Neville" is
.  I know where Neville is (I used to live a few miles from there and currently live less than two hours away) and I can assure you that Colorado law does not apply.

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

See my 12:00 post - I did not realise this was a lesson.

If there had been any sign of a lesson actually happening in the video, this whole ZT conversation wouldn't have happened.

Now, if I was the parent of any child in that video, I would be having a serious word with whoever is supposed to be in charge at that school.

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DJ Radio (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

I've gotten suspended for drawing a gun in class before around 4 years ago.

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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

. And what part(s) of that apply to the video that the OP posted? By my reckoning, it's parts 1 and 2.

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Goodhart (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

Yes, it runs along the line of "lets not think, let's just make a "rule"; for instance, no drugs, that means asperine and without "giving it to the nurse to dispense" emergency asthma inhalers also (right, I am having an attack, and have between 20 seconds and 2 minutes to get "breathing again", would someone  please call the nurse, because I can't breath, I can't speak well either; no one? oh how sad).


Nacho, I am not saying you are wrong, nor am I "just" supporting what Kiteman is saying, but we HAVE become a nation of non-thinkers, instead of intelligence, instead of understanding, we just "ban anything that looks like it and eventually sounds like it" (the word gun is next to be banned in schools I am sure).

WEIRDLY, I carried a pocket knife every day of my life from the age of 12 on up. I never thought of it as a "weapon", it was a tool, like the pencil, like the drafting compass (now THERE'S a sharp point), etc. When did we stop teaching children to have some sense? Maybe when the parents started using schools as day care centers, and demanded THEY raise our children...
I have at agree with Kiteman on one thing, it is a SAD indictment of where we are headed in this country. Can we say "oblivion"? I knew we could....

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NachoMahma (author)Goodhart2011-03-01

. Did anyone actually look at the video?
. 1) They are in class. They should be paying attention to what's going on or something else constructive.
. 2) They don't seem to have a lot of respect for other ppl (0:10)
. 3) "Just felt like being a rebel today" (0:30). And then has the gall to complain? If you're going to be a rebel, be man enough to take your licks when you get caught - otherwise, you're just a spoiled brat.
.
. I am not for knee-jerk bans on items in schools (I carried a pocket knife when I was in school), but this particular case shows a flagrant disregard for rules and other ppl. No sympathy here.

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

I did watch the video, but I thought it was break-time! (Many schools in the UK allow kids to use gym areas outside of lessons.)

Where's the teacher? What's the lesson?

I see a couple of kids playing basketball, a few with sketch pads, one eating, others just sitting... but... education?

If I ran a lesson like this, I'd find myself on the receiving end of some serious comments from our Head!

Scratch all my comments about Zero Tolerance - it seems some US schools occupy the opposite end of the spectrum!

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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

> I thought it was break-time!
.  See 0:04-0:05.

> I see a couple of kids playing basketball, a few with sketch pads, one eating, others just sitting... but... education?
.  With such a short clip and no inkling as to how the class normally looks, I'm not comfortable drawing too many conclusions.

> If I ran a lesson like this, I'd find ...
.  Yep. A LOT of things are different on this side of The Pond. ;)

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

0:04-0:05 - it took me that long to turn the volume up...

It's not about jumping to conclusions - a few seconds' view should be enough to work out what subject is being taught, and a full scan of the room should be enough to identify a responsible adult.

There was a documentary on the BBC yesterday about fast-tracking ex-servicemen into school teaching posts, something that has apparently been happening in the US with a lot of success for 18 years. In even the briefest shot of a classroom, education was clearly happening, and the teachers were clearly leading or facilitating the class.

Obviously the editors of each film had different agendas, and the BBC spent more time editing to illustrate a point, but the difference between those lessons and the one above was extreme.

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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

.  As with vocational training and, to a lesser extent, Art, PE emphasis and funding has decreased dramatically in the US. Even when NachoDaughter was in HS (ten years or so ago), PE was little more than social time - very little P and next to no E.
.  Comparing an amateur, from-the-hip video clip that probably had zero editing other than the pause button and a professional, well-produced BBC documentary doesn't sound very fair to me, even with your disclaimer.
.  Maybe the instructor was called away for a few minutes. Maybe the kids are allowed to run free. Doesn't matter. If the rules say "no toy guns that can eject a projectile", then that's what the rules say.

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DJ Radio (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

Closest the rules say to that is "No water guns".

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NachoMahma (author)DJ Radio2011-03-01

. I got 0.25 USD says that there is a rule in there _somewhere_ against items and/or behaviors that the school considers dangerous and/or disruptive and/or not conducive to academic pursuits.
.  Napoleonic law is not so different that you would be allowed to disturb those who are trying to learn. ;)

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Kiteman (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

Hello? I'm not disputing the rules. I pointed out that I did not realise that it was a lesson.

If this video had been shot in one of my lessons, or by one of the kids in my cohort, I would have taken both gun and phone, and asked the parents to collect them.

Good grief, Nacho, you're just arguing for the sake of it now.

We'll talk another time.

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NachoMahma (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

. So if I agree with you (rules is rules), then I'm arguing for the sake of it? If you say so. >shrug<

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Goodhart (author)NachoMahma2011-03-01

Yes, I did....and this is why I wasn't supporting either side necessarily, but just pointing out that we, as a nation ARE becoming "ban it all so we don't have to think" people. In this case, the kid is being disruptive and probably needs to have his "toy" taken from him, but not because it was a gun, but because it was disruptive.

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Kiteman (author)Goodhart2011-03-01

It's not just medicine - I have read examples of children being punished under drug ZT for sharing sweets.

The whole thing is ridiculous, and it's creeping in over here - a head teacher recently excluded primary-school children for not walking with their hands clasped behind his back, or not lining up fast enough

Fortunately, the parents made enough of a fuss that the head lasted only two days before getting the boot.


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DJ Radio (author)Kiteman2011-03-01

I've read of a kid dying from an asthma attack after he was told his inhaler was not allowed under the ZT drug law.

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