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RBGs- True Semi-Auto or Not? Answered

Alright so I'm having a "civilized discussion" with Mykhailo/whoever you call him now and he's arguing, just like plenty of others, that RBGs are not true semi auto because of the reasons soon to be listed. Comparing RBGs to real firearms (which I understand are not exactly alike in plenty of ways) I find that they're more like a true semi automatic than what you guys would call true semi autos. Just listen to my argument and see if you can at least understand what I'm saying.

The majority of your arguments for why an RBG is not a true semi auto is that you have to prepare a band for every shot. Some of you compare this to cocking a weapon more than once for every shot. I find this a bad comparison. In real fire arms, the firing mechanism isn't what launches the bullet. It triggers the powder which then in turn shoots the bullet. An RBG is similar to this. Each rubber band acts as the "powder" for the bullets. The RBG firing mechanism simply sets them off. You also have to prepare real cartridges too. Does it matter if it's you or not who makes them? You still have to mix up and add the powder all the same as you must add RBs to your weapon. This brought up the argument that it's still not a true semi auto because the bullet isn't self-contained in an RBG. OK I have two things to say to this. First, now bullets decide the firing mode of a weapon? Secondly, what about ooda's RBG ammo. That's self contained, isn't it? The bullet is attached directly to the RBG.

What do you guys think?

50 Replies

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mettaurlover (author)2011-01-22

I say that they're true semi-auto. Pulling back the bands and hooking them onto the ratchet is comparable to loading the magazine, not to pulling back the slide.

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TheDunkis (author)mettaurlover2011-01-23

A little late to the party, bud...
But I compare priming the bands to mixing and storing the powder because that's what the equivalent power source is for real firearms.

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mettaurlover (author)TheDunkis2011-01-23

Still, some people thought that pulling them back was like pulling back the firing pin for each shot.

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TheDunkis (author)mettaurlover2011-01-23

Which was somewhat true. I'd compare pulling back the pin to musket loading. You load the charge and then you load a round. RBGs have separate charges all on one gun. I'd further prove my point by getting my full auto RBG idea to work but I still haven't figured out how to make a good band release mech.

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mettaurlover (author)TheDunkis2011-01-23

Heh. "full-auto" RBG? What RBG ISN'T full-auto? I haven't found a decent semi-auto mech yet.

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TheDunkis (author)mettaurlover2011-01-23

Well that's the thing. I figured out a way that should work because it's based on real automatic firearms. The problem is that I have yet to find a near frictionless mechanism. I'd need a trigger that takes hardly any effort to pull.

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vog115 (author)2010-05-01
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TheChemiker (author)2010-04-01

Ok, can we stop comparing knex guns to real guns?  There is almost no similarity!

RBG are true semi-auto, because what happens when you pull the trigger?  A shot goes out.  Pull it again.  Another comes out.  WOW, each time a pull the trigger without doing anything else, it shoots.  Therefore, it is semi-auto, one trigger pull=1 shot.  Of course reloading is different.

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DJ Radio (author)TheChemiker2010-04-01

But the argument against it is that loading 8 shots into it is like pulling back a firing pin 8 times and shooting it.

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TheChemiker (author)DJ Radio2010-04-18

So?  It is still techically semi-auto.

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TheDunkis (author)TheChemiker2010-04-01

lol we did stop...you revived it.

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TheChemiker (author)TheDunkis2010-04-18

RBGs are real semi-auto for knex.  Who gives a rip about reloading.

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Millawi Legend (author)2010-04-17

Just say in your ible if anyone brings up the term "pseudo semi auto" that you will hunt them down and remove there rectum with a keyboard.

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TheDunkis (author)Millawi Legend2010-04-17

Actually, last time I said something like that was with my Mosquito. Something along the lines "Anyone who says 'reminds me of a ______' (whatever gun it was compared to) will be hunted down and stabbed with a spoon.
Then everyone spammed the heck out of the phrase thinking they were funny for it like the little 10 year olds they were.

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DJ Radio (author)TheDunkis2010-04-17

I think that was your Mini-er TDS.

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TheDunkis (author)DJ Radio2010-04-17

Either way it still was annoying.

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DJ Radio (author)TheDunkis2010-04-17

And hiliarious.  You can't forget hilarious.

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TheDunkis (author)DJ Radio2010-04-17

Uh not really actually. Not even if it were someone else. It's childish humor in my opinion.

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NachoMahma (author)2010-04-01

.  I'm not a K'nexer so feel free to ignore this.
.  While a RBG does not fully meet any definition of semi-automatic firearm I have seen, as others have pointed out, you can't always make a one-to-one comparison. A RGB certainly fulfills the requirement of auto-loading (bringing next round to firing position). IMNSHO, it is fair to call a RGB a semi-automatic, just be aware that it's not the same SA as a real gun.

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TheDunkis (author)NachoMahma2010-04-01

I'm fully aware that K'nex is not steel. The question is does everyone else know that the concept is exactly the same? You use a trigger device,whatever it may be, to unleash the acting force, whatever it may be, on the projectile, whatever it may be. How they achieve all these are entirely different, I get that.
The problem is that semi automatic has only ever applied to firearms and not anything else so the definition is going to be very specific. But we don't have any special K'nexing terms so it's just easier to borrow form firearm terminology no matter how much people think we should avoid comparing the two.

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Raikou-san (author)Mepain2010-04-03

I still laugh every time I see this. XD

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NachoMahma (author)TheDunkis2010-04-02

.  Apparently, you missed my first sentence. Or did I give you a good excuse to get back on your soapbox?
.  It might be a good idea to find a hobby that doesn't jack up your blood pressure so much. Will it really matter what it's called in ten years?

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TheDunkis (author)NachoMahma2010-04-02

I wasn't looking for an argument, buddy. If you want to comment, expect me to comment back seriously, no matter what the subject is.

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knexguy (author)2010-04-02

More people should make Oodjamaflick guns.

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TheDunkis (author)knexguy2010-04-02

I never tried it. Do they work well at all? I know it's better than a plain rubber band because of the extra weight but I would figure that the rubber band would cause extra drag compared to just a normal K'nex piece flung by a rubber band.

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knexguy (author)TheDunkis2010-04-03

They are quicker to load though.

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oodalumps (author)2010-02-23

OK OK. You've activated the oodaRAGE machine. I'll keep this squeaky clean so the admins here don't delete it like they usually do.

First of all: a warning to anybody trying to bring up expanding gasses or shell ejecting in a Knex semi-auto thread. Don't do it. You're just making yourself look like a donkey.

  You're right on one thing. Rubberbands are both the accelerating force and the bullet. They are self contained and a complete package. Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with the semi-auto debate, and you've got the rest of it wrong.
  Your main argument is that the force from the rubberband is the same as gunpowder in the bullet. Implying that priming a rubberband is different from priming a firing pin. Terribly wrong. There is no difference between pulling a rubber band back, and pulling a rubber band back that has a firing pin stuck to it. In both cases, you need to exert force onto rubberbands for each shot prior to shooting. In the past I've called this "individually loading a bunch of glued-together muskets".
  You called the RBG mech the firing pin in RBG guns "the part that sets the powder off". Because in real guns, the mechanisms are about setting off powder. So do guns with multiple firing pins shoot off on their own? What magical guns you have in mind! For us here on earth, firing pin guns have their own mechanism to set off each shot. Does having a trigger mech make the task of pulling pins back ignorable?

I would end this post properly but I wrote too much already and I want to play videogames. 10$ says I should have proofread.

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TheDunkis (author)oodalumps2010-02-24

How do you think I feel? You all use the same argument that I keep countering and I have to reexplain myself every single time. I'm wondering mostly about RBGs that shoot pieces loaded from a magazine by the way.
You want to compare a K'nex weapon to another K'nex weapon to determine what to call it using a term made for real fire arms? Real firearms are what use these real terms so we have to compare K'nex to real fire arms, otherwise we could completely make it all up if we wanted. I know they are far from similar but they still follow the same concept. They both have a firing mechanism where the trigger is pulled to unleash the acting force on the bullet. Rubber bands and powder are of an entirely different kind of potential energy, one by physical contraction and the other by chemical reactions. Does it really matter how these are made? No, the only thing that matters is each requires the potential energy to be made. Rubber bands must be stretched and gunpowder must be mixed.

Stop comparing anything else. Stop differentiating everything else. We are determining what makes a true semi-semiautomatic. We don't look at the bullets. I've already explained how they both follow the same concept. We look at the firing mechanism. Do they each allow the acting force to be unleashed on the bullets with every trigger pull? They don't need to be cocked each time. They just need a prepared bullet ready to activate and they'll fire each time the trigger is pulled even if through different methods.

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oodalumps (author)TheDunkis2010-02-24

"RBGs that shoot pieces loaded from a magazine" Even worse for your argument. No difference from that and every other multi-pin gun.

I am convinced you've never heard the term "pseudo semi-auto". When you've figured out what that means, come back and tell me why the guns you have in mind aren't that.

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TheDunkis (author)oodalumps2010-02-24

I'm convinced you don't even read my entire argument because I keep telling you guys over and over and you don't seem to get what I'm saying. Pseudo-semi-automatic meaning it functions like a semi auto with a press of the trigger but still not exactly semi automatic in how it's prepared. That's what I'm saying though. When you prepare a rubber band you aren't cocking the weapon. You're preparing a bullet.

You tell me why rubber bands launching K'nex pieces is different than powder propelling bullets except for the obvious.

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oodalumps (author)TheDunkis2010-02-25

'sup. Ibles mods deleted my last reply. I didn't even swear in it. After being tempted to spam profanity to p-off the mods, I decided I'd just attempt another post.

This topic would be useful if nobody ever built the true semi-autos that we have. I'm talking about guns like my pistol. I say this because, if what you're calling semi-autos are indeed semi-autos, then what are the non-RBG semi-autos we have? SUPER semi-autos? Because they're the most semi-automatic thing possible, as they are actually semi-auto. Calling anything else semi-auto would be an insult to the real ones.

**********
This paragraph is only if you're thinking of telling me that these semi-autos are not real semi-autos because they do not use a blowback system. There are real guns that use a "double action" mechanism. They use the power from the trigger pull to pull the hammer back before each shot. I'm NOT talking about revovlers.
**********

The term "pseudo semi-auto" was MADE for the RBG-semi-autos. We added "pseudo" because an extra action was needed before shooting. This goes for the RBG's with the pinwheel. This also applies for several single-shot RBGs stuck together and operated with one trigger. It also goes for multiple single-shot firing pin guns stuck together.

Replying to "You tell me why rubber bands launching K'nex pieces is different than powder propelling bullets except for the obvious." is against my policy (you would know if you read my post before it got deleted). Just trying to make the comparison makes you look like a donkey. But what the heck. I'll finish this off:

  The difference between gunpowder and rubberbands is that rubberbands do not come with energy stored in them. You give them energy before shooting. Real guns have this too. It's called a spring, and it launches the hammer. You need to give it the initial energy by pulling the slide back once, and the recoil provides the hammer's energy for all the shots afterwards.
  You're implying that RBG semi-autos don't need any initial energy to begin the cycle, AND don't need any energy to continue firing. The trigger on a RBG does not give it energy, it's just a limiter to stop them from all going off at once. This is impossible. The RBG mech would be like having a lot of pulled-back hammers waiting to strike their own individual bullets, and the trigger stops them until it is pulled. But you needed to pull each hammer back in the first place. What you've got is a whole bunch of single-shots linked to one trigger. That is a "pseudo semi-auto".

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TheDunkis (author)oodalumps2010-02-25

lol so overall you were getting all upset for me spitting on your true semi autos? The problem is the typical K'nex gun doesn't work like real guns (no **** Sherlock?). The firing pin for K'nex launches the bullet. What does that make the previous true semi autos? I don't know exactly but they still could qualify as true semi autos. They don't follow along the same concept but you still get a shot for every trigger pull. They'd still be double actions and RBGs would still be RBGs. I don't see why both being considered true semi autos would be a problem.

Do you think we just scoop up gunpowder out of nature? It still has to be prepared in order for it to properly unleash the energy it can. Do you agree that the rubber band is the source of power for the bullet? Then that's all you really need. It doesn't have multiple barrels or multiple trigger mechanisms. It doesn't really matter how the potential energy comes to be. It doesn't matter how the trigger mechanism operates if it still sets off the bullets one by one. I would agree with you if there was a row of single-shot RBGs all lined up and you triggered each one individually. Preparing an RBG could be roughly compared to mixing up a homemade batch of powder (as difficult as it may be) and preparing the bullets yourself. A donkey I shall remain.

Well whatever. We're obviously not making much progress unless our goal is to write a book. I think an unstoppable force has just met an unmovable object. I'll just keep going my own way and you can keep sitting where you stand. I'm done here. I'll probably have to close the thread before we get unintelligent people involved starting up a fight. Thanks for the more sensible reasoning though.

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oodalumps (author)TheDunkis2010-02-26

You need to hit gunpowder to make ti blow up. You missed my point when I said that rubberbands are not the gunpowder, they are the hammers.

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Mepain (author)TheDunkis2010-02-24

You tell me why rubber bands launching K'nex pieces is different than powder propelling bullets except for the obvious.

Since we've established the fact that rubber bands act as pins in pseudo semi-autos, you'd agree that these types of K'NEX guns have multiple firing pins. Real guns have one firing pin.

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TheDunkis (author)Mepain2010-02-24

You have such twisted logic. You're comparing one K'nex firing type to another  K'nex firing type and then comparing that to a real fire arm. That doesn't make sense to me, sorry. Alright, explain to me how the rubber bands act as pins? Oh wait, I can answer that for you. They're the acting force like a pin...except it's more like gunpowder.

Real guns have one trigger mechanism and multiple bullets each with their own source of power. If you take out the rubber bands, the bullets in the magazine won't fire. If you take out the primer and gun powder, the bullets in real firearm's magazine won't fire even if the firing pin strikes them. If you take out the firing mechanism of an RBG, it wouldn't fire with a pull of the trigger but you could still manually unleash the rubber bands yourself. If you took out the firing pin assembly of a real fire arm, you wouldn't be able to fire the gun with a pull of the trigger but you could still strike the primer manually. How is this not enough proof that rubber bands =/=firing pin? Rubber bands = gunpowder if anything.

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Mepain (author)TheDunkis2010-02-24

Since I already understand what you're trying to get at, I didn't bother reading your second block of letters. Until you understand what I am trying to say, I'll just leave you with this:

I don't understand your necessity to compare toys to real guns so vivaciously, their operations are based upon completely different concepts. Gunpowder is chemical. Rubber bands are mechanical. They cannot be compared.

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TheDunkis (author)Mepain2010-02-25

Because we are comparing K'nex guns to real fire arm terms! If we're going to call a K'nex gun something based on how a real gun performs, I'm going to compare the K'nex gun itself to a real gun. If it functions like a true semi-auto, it should be called a true semi-auto or something else entirely not relating to semi-auto.
As I've said, it isn't the bullets that determine the firing mode, which is what we're discussing here, so any talk about how rubber bands and gun powder is different is irrelevant. The only thing that matters about them is they have the same job in a semi auto.

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Fred the Penguin (author)2010-02-24

hmm, looking at argument below, why not just stick an rbg mech on a logic bow and be done with it, single firing pin, repeating magazine, decent power, semi auto capibility.

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DJ Radio (author)2010-02-24

I have a suggestion to end the argument once and for all: NOT CARE ABOUT IT.

Knex is knex, not anything else.  If you think that pulling the trigger once per shot without pulling a pin is semi auto, nobody's gonna really complain except for that one person who doesn't have anything better to do.  I'm not suggesting to call the guns whatever the hell we want to, I'm just saying that both theories have equal merit and it's impossible for any newcoming bystander to pick one. 

I've been sticking with the theory that has the more convincing argument, but that's become nigh impossible at this point.

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Raikou-san (author)2010-02-22

In most semi-automatic weapons, you still have to pull something back initially to fire the first shot, then the bullet's force produces an air space, pushing the pin back again, then the trigger can be pulled again for another shot, until the magazine/ammo storage runs dry.

In knex, the rubber bands act as the pin in an RBG (if you're firing catching ammo (connectors, like in a repeating crossbow), that is). The only difference I see is that the "pin, or all of the bands in this case" must be pulled back prior to firing the first shot, instead of the pin being pushed back automatically after each shot is fired.

So, yes, I agree.

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TheDunkis (author)Raikou-san2010-02-22

Gah, the number one mistake I see people make is comparing the rubber bands to the firing pin when it isn't  the firing pin that propels the bullet. It's the gunpowder. If you took out the gunpowder, the gun would cease to fire, no? The firing pin simply sets off the powder all the same as an RBG mech sets off a rubber band.

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Whaleman (author)TheDunkis2010-02-22
The pin in knex guns. Not every statement relates to real guns. In this case, the rubber band is the force acting on the bullet. In RBG's, rubber bands are also the bullet. In pseudo-semi's, the rubber bands are pins. You need eight rubber bands for eight shots, so you need eight pins for eight shots.
 

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DJ Radio (author)Whaleman2010-02-23

So to clarify, you consider rubberbands pins because they are the force acting on the bullet, like in a real gun?  As opposed to TD's theory that rubberbands are powder because they make the gun work and shoot. 

I'd see this as a POV thing that varies from person to person.  I agree more with your theory but others might agree with TD.  Both are equally viable.

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TheDunkis (author)DJ Radio2010-02-23

*smacks forehead* FIRING PINS DO NOT PROPEL THE BULLET IN REAL FIRE ARMS!! How many times do I have to say that?! Take out the gun powder and primer and what happens? The gun won't fire. The firing pin will strike the bullet and nothing will happen. Same thing with rubber bands. Take them off, pull the trigger, and the ammo will not fire.

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Whaleman (author)TheDunkis2010-02-23
Take off the (real firearm) pin and what happens? You get bullets rusting in your gun. Real guns have four parts- pin, primer, powder, projectile. Knex guns have three parts- band, pin, bullet.
 

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TheDunkis (author)Whaleman2010-02-23

Ah ha, but the difference is that you can still fire a bullet loaded with powder by manually striking the primer yourself. You can also fling a k'nex piece by letting loose the rubber band yourself. They both still contain their potential energy. They just can't unleash it until something triggers it whether the gun or yourself.

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DJ Radio (author)TheDunkis2010-02-23

Ok You've convinced me to lean toward your theory.

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sprout_less (author)2010-02-23

 I agree with you but also that it is not semi-auto

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