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Round 2: Abortion. Argue with me, I dare you! Answered

The title is a bit misleading, as I don't actually have much of a stance either way. I haven't ever thought about this in depth, but now I am forced to. (I have another debate). :P

Today, my teacher asked me what I thought about abortion, and I felt that any answer I gave would be a lie, because I hadn't yet answered these questions:

When does life begin?

When does life end?



Later, when we spoke after school, he asked me another question:

Who creates life?

This is the most puzzling, and I had no idea what he meant at the time. Now, though, I guess that he was really asking "When a human being is born into this world, is it due to the man and the woman? All of humanity? God?"

The last, I cannot accept as my answer, because I don't believe in any god.

I believe that a human being is a beautiful thing, that good is good, and evil is evil. Beyond this, I'm not sure of much at all.

(Update: I think I said something I hadn't truly considered. The way that I said "Good is good, and evil is evil," might lead you to believe that I think there's a clear-cut difference between the two. I'm still not sure about some of these things).

I think it would help if I could hear and understand others' views on this.

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Kiteman (author)2007-05-22

I think you're probably capable of answering these big questions for yourself. Do a bit of research by all means, but make sure that your conclusions are yours. If you allow somebody else to tell you the answers to these questions, you have entered the realm of Religion (see my thoughts here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/A3982511 ). If you allow somebody else to tell you what you think, and refuse to allow you (or anybody) to question the answers, you have entered the realms of Fundamentalism.

Run for your life.


Who creates life?

Isn't there a constitutional/legal separation between state and church in the USA?

This teacher of yours just broke that law, especially if they are pretending to have any answers to that question other than "nobody - it evolved". If this teacher is anything other than a teacher of philosophy, my first reaction is to report them. Get them reprimanded for overstepping their legitimate role.

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royalestel (author)Kiteman2007-05-23

He goes to a private school. They can talk about reliigion all they want.

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oldfart (author)Kiteman2007-05-22

I don't think it should be illegal to ask this, except the you should be changed to "what creates (created) life. I don't think anything will be accomplished by arguing this, as one side claims the right of the woman is being violated and the other is claiming the fetuses rights are being violated. This is a no win situation, as from each of their points of view they are both correct. So there can be no middle ground. The only solution is that abortions would be legal but no one would ever want one. And this isn't going to happen. Some questions to ask might be: Should a woman be forced to gestate. (carry the baby to term) How is this to happen if she is set on aborting the fetus? Shall she be locked in prison in a rubber room or in a locked hospital ward? Is she not the owner of her body, the ultimate example of property ownership, and have a right to use that body as she wishes? If murder is always wrong, how do we explain the state ending the lives of people they deem beyond redemption through the death penalty? How about war? Do we have large funeral doings for miscarried fetuses? Why not? If fetuses have rights, then how can we explain that we deny a toddler the right to run into the street or be alone near a swimming pool? They are older and therefore shouldn't they have the right to their liberty? We may choose to care for our young, even our unborn, but does that mean they have some claim on our lives? (this is kind of getting way out there but interesting to think about) and-- By the same token, if our unborn and children have total claims against our lives, isn't this the definition of slavery? Do they "own" our lives? What is the definition of human being, are people born fully developed or evolve into functional rational humans at a later time? If not what is the age of majority for anyway? I don't believe that we have any right to abuse children, or anyone else for that matter. And that goes for animals too. But if we confer rights onto beings that cannot understand or comprehend the responsibility that rights bring. then what do we do when the wolf kills the deer, or the child wants to play with something dangerous? Take them to court and punish them? So the fetus may be a living thing, as an acorn is a living thing, but an acorn is not an oak tree and a fetus is not a human being. Yet.

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dchall8 (author)2007-05-22

Have you noticed that views on capital punishment and abortion tend to be opposed? In other words, it's OK to do one but not the other?

No I never noticed that the views on the humane capital punishment of a convicted felon was in conflict with the view of crushing the skull of an innocent fetus. And you say it's okay to do one but not the other? Why would that be?

MY opinion is that it's ALWAYS the women's (and to a lesser extent the man's) choice.

What about a scenario where a serial murderer, who's family tree has a history of genetic disorders, rapes a woman. Should it be her choice to terminate a pregnancy as a result of the rape?

My opinion is that once the woman has made the choice of having unprotected sex, she is out of choices. After that she has the RESPONSIBILITY to take care of her body, and the life inside, as if she were protecting any other child, born or unborn.

If a woman gets raped, that is a tough situation, but the growing fetus needs to be protected to term and thereafter. The fetus is innocent of the father's sin. Knowing there is a genetic component of behavior can help with raising the child, but it not an automatic death penalty. What if it was a family history of alcoholism? or bad breath? Who gets to decide which genes are to be allowed to survive? The Supreme Court? Congress?

We humans are the caretakers of the Earth. We are the only species who can decide to not do something for reasons of morality. We are separated from the animals by the ability to go against our instincts for sex and to kill animals for food. I'm not trying to get biblical but the Ten Commandments are not just a good idea. They are well reasoned list of behaviors that every successful society needs to at least consider adhering to.

The commandment in question, regardless of how anyone's religion numbers them, is the hopelessly oversimplified, "thou shalt not kill" one. Well, kill what? People? Fetuses? Convicted criminals? Animals? Kill a few hours at Home Depot while the missus is getting her hair done? I think the more appropriate, if not much more descriptive, wording is, "Thou shalt not commit murder." The punishment for a (convicted) murderer has nearly always been established to be a societally sanctioned execution, not a revenge or retaliatory murder. But if it ever comes down to keeping the convict alive and locked away, I can go with that.

Assuming the fetus has committed none of society's sins, then why can the fetus's carrier (soon to be the mother) unilaterally decide to execute it? Suddenly she has a right to kill because this baby is inconvenient and doesn't fit into her life's plans? And her ability to decide to execute it supersedes her societal responsibility and obligation to protect? And she can do that because the fetus has not yet poked her head out? Where does this stuff come from? Show me the chapter and verse for that! Is there any question as to whether the unborn fetus might not actually become a born human at the end of the 9-month gestation? I just don't understand where these women got the right to execute a soon-to-be human child without an enormous societal outrage. What has become of the shame?

I hesitate to use examples of people living today who might have been aborted by some people's standards of decision, but Dr. Stephen Hawking has been diagnosed with ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis or Lou Gehrig's disease). Sometimes there is a genetic component in that disease, but in his case, I do not believe that is true. Nevertheless, that disease might become someone's reason for abortion. Twenty years after Dr Hawking's doctors predicted his death, he published his famous "A Brief History of Time." Over the years, Hawking married and has three children. It is now 20 years after the book publishing and 40 years after his doctors thought his life would end (naturally). Dr Hawking is still active and currently holds Sir Issac Newton's chair as Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge University. The man is a genius on the order of Einstein, Newton, Galileo, and others. Unfortunately the same argument can be made for Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Pol Pot. But my point is that Hitler's, Stalin's, and Pol's fetus' were innocent of their father's atrocities AND their genetic happenstance.

We may not know today why some children are born different, but we will never know why if they are aborted. Good, bad, or indifferent, we are all here to glorify our humanity. A society that allows killing of the human fetus is in a very sad state.

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royalestel (author)2007-05-22

What the?! Ok, I'm not even going to read the other posts, but here's my take-- We, as humans, don't know for sure when life begins. We also universally agree that murder is wrong. Since we don't know for a fact when life begins, we can't say for sure when abortion is murder. However, we ought to err on the side of safety and protect the innocent. I have never understood why a person does not go through the inconvenience of a pregnancy and birth in the US and put their child up for adoption rather than risk murdering an innocent child.

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royalestel (author)royalestel2007-05-22

Oh yeah, as any parent of a child with special needs can tell you, a life with a "disability" is absoutely one worth saving. I'll have no eugenics in my personal life, thank you very much.

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drinkmorecoffee (author)2007-05-22

Wow, I haven't really had a chance to read all the posts on this thread, but I'll add my 10 cents worth later on. For any of you wondering where people are getting those bible references, just go here, and do a search.
More later,

N

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trebuchet03 (author)2007-05-01

Well, First -- Kudos to your teacher for asking tough questions with many correct answers.


It looks like it has been said... But I too will never go against a woman's wish. If I happened to be the one that got us into this situation - I do not want to be a factor in whatever decision is made. Whatever the decision - I will support it, because I obviously made my choice, so it's time to stick to it... I guess, in a sense, I try to be a gentleman.


Religion..... Occasionally, I get made fun of for this (especially living "I-4 corridor" of Florida - a sort of bible belt) - but I follow a form of agnosticism. Unfortunately, other organized religions of blurred what this truly is... But here's my take - and the only one that matters to me.... 1. You can ask the question - Is there a "God" but (like many religions), you CAN NOT answer this question - it is unknowable. 2. Should there be a "heaven" and if there is said "God" AND s/he wants me there - it will be because I was myself and did not make an attempt. Take me for who I am, and not for what I think you want me to be.

Now before anyone goes off saying I've never been exposed.... When I was a young child - I went to Mass, Sunday school etc. (My father is catholic). When I was a little older, I went to temple and I am Bar Mitzvah (My mother is Jewish). Still later, I read quite a bit of the 5 Pillars (Islam). In the beginning of college, I really liked the philosophy of the four noble truths (Buddhism). Of EVERYTHING that I have read and been exposed to... I really enjoyed the philosophy of the eightfold path of Buddhism - really, speak not to harm, avoid actions to harm and make your actions genuine, do not harm others, do not dwell on the negative, keep your body healthy etc. etc. Honestly, I don't think about it all the time -- but when I'm stressed out or something/someone bothers me, it's a good fall back on - it got me out of a mild depression (homesick) so to me, it was obvious that this was a good thing (for me).

Lastly, I NEVER EVER will put my philosophy onto another person. I will, however, help someone relieve stress when it's obvious something bothers them. Usually, that's in the form of saying "there's nothing that can be done now - wait until it matters to worry about (whatever it is that bothers them)."


So now that you know where my philosophy comes from for the most part... Before I say my stance, allow me to give yet another philosophy perspective on the subject. As is in Buddhism, life begins under three conditions - egg, sperm and a being ready to be reborn. Without interpretation, abortion is wrong. However, it is permissible under circumstances for the mother's sake. Depending who you ask, the later one waits, the "more wrong" it becomes. All that said, the philosophy makes a VERY big separation between biological and what you would call a soul (actual life itself). Preservation of "life" deserves the utmost respect and protection - but "life" does not necessarily mean the physical embodiment (read: exceptions for disorders et. al.). The subject is a rather big topic within the Buddhist community (and I don't claim to be an expert). The fundamental question is - does abortion violate the First Precept and the bigger question "what is 'life'" as the term "life" is left ambiguous. It is recognized that in order to survive, we must eat - which takes away the lives of plants et. al. This is necessary as life has plenty of moral wounds and moral healing - it is not a linear motion of right and wrong, nor is it shades of gray... It's give and take.

In recap, I am saying that if you take a quick look - abortion is wrong under the philosophy. But, reading further - you'll find it is a VERY compassionate philosophy open to great interpretation.


As for what I think..... As an American and as our fundamental laws were written - we have freedom of religion, freedom from religion and rights not explicitly states may not be infringed upon. Under this, I believe there should be no law against.

To be honest, there was a time when it was illegal.... But that didn't stop it from happening... And it continued in a very dangerous way :/


If you take on bit of advice, make this it.
If you choose to be sexually active - TALK. Bring it up with your partner BEFORE anything happens. Condoms are not 100% fool proof, nor is the pill, nor any other form of contraception. But talk BEFORE anything happens so should something unplanned happen - your decisions were not made emotionally (for any case).



Now, to respond to what has been said already - and some really great things have been...

1. Las Vegas
Good and evil are human creations. Is a wolf evil when it fights another wolf for dominance of the pack? Is a dog evil when it catches and kills a cat? No to both. They are simply acting on their natures. Only humans have defined evil and it changes as society changes.
Nail on the head....

2. westfw:
Abortion is a really tough question because it's hard to accept that the BEST solution to a problem may not be a GOOD solution to the problem. (And I think that I worded that carefully enough that you can use it either way.)
So true for many things... The best solutions typically cost you the most - again, that should work for any case ;)

3. faust
When the fetus is in the womb, it is still part of the mother. It also lacks the ability to reproduce.
This is something seldom stated, yet very important. however, I've usually heard it as "it never had the ability to reproduce" as defect, age etc. can change that.

4. HamO
You don't believe in God?
See above :p Does it make me exempt if I said no? Or not in the same way you do?

5. Also HamO
Life begins at conception.
This is also a very interesting point... As contraception does NOT mean pregnancy - in fact, this is quite frequently the case (this is why you hear people "trying" but not very successful)... Another seldom point spoken of...

6. Viron
Did anyone notice that RU-486 (a name for an abortion pill)
is not any particular chemical name, but a wicked silly way of saying
(as in text code) "ARE YOU FOR IT ALL GONE"?

If you've ever seen said pills (because it's not one pill), it's referenced as "Mifeprex" which is also not a chemical name... Really most meds are not called by chemical names, instead by trade names ;) 486 was a clinical trial number.... In any case, IUDs are another form of both contraception and emergency contraception. Levonorgestril (sp?) is another emergency contraceptive drug... You may know it (or not) by "plan B" ;) Remember that all of these are classified as contraceptives (as by how they work), which by definition means before pregnancy (preventing ovulation).

I searched Google for "ARE YOU FOR T ALL GONE" Link and didn't get an hits :/ ?

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canida (author)trebuchet032007-05-14

A slight correction to the end of your very long comment- many of these contraceptives don't prevent ovulation; they prevent implantation. There's also some overlap- the pill is designed to prevent ovulation, but can also discourage implantation.

I've no interest in getting bogged down in the joys of ethical meta-discourse, but wanted to set the biological effects straight.

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trebuchet03 (author)canida2007-05-22

Thanks for the correction :D

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trebuchet03 (author)VIRON2007-05-02

ahh, I figured it was a term search thing :p

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carbon (author)trebuchet032007-05-02

All that said, the philosophy makes a VERY big separation between biological and what you would call a soul (actual life itself). Preservation of "life" deserves the utmost respect and protection - but "life" does not necessarily mean the physical embodiment (read: exceptions for disorders et. al.).

I do not understand what you mean by "exceptions for disorders."

Which "life" are you referring to? Oh! Is it just that the soul is the real life?

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carbon (author)carbon2007-05-02

Is it just that the soul is the real life?

I mean, that it is not the flesh that is the person, it is the person that makes the person.

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trebuchet03 (author)carbon2007-05-02

I mean, that it is not the flesh that is the person

That's pretty much it. As for disorders - many forms of the philosophy will say it's completely fine should the mother's life be threatened (preservation of biological life). Similarly, some forms will say that if the child will have severe problems - it is okay.

Suffering and healing are all connected... But it is a greater good to prevent suffering (First Precept) which in turn brings up the very same debate (and open for interpretation) :p

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carbon (author)carbon2007-05-02

On another note, I believe that I am "a form of" agnostic, by your definition.

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guitarj (author)2007-05-15

Hey man, I know just what you mean. one of my friend =s is athiest, ones catholic, ones jewish andonesagnostic.We talk about stuff like this on a regular basis at school but personally I say, that while having an abortion may end the infants life it all saves the life of the mother and possible things such as abandonement.

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insanity (author)2007-05-03

Abortion is wrong because it is murdering innocent little childreen. It is also wrong because according to the bible it is wrong too.

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lemonie (author)insanity2007-05-15

You might at least have quoted the bible on this.... Book:chapter:verse ?

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hostkill (author)insanity2007-05-04

ok you use such strong words to make your point, you must have strong feelings about this subject. and i can understand why people would use the word murdering. and for me there are some cases i would have to agree but what is murder first of all. it has to be alive in order to kill it. am i right or wrong and i have read up a little about the word murder and when there is the first heart beat or life to a baby in side of its mother and that is about 5-7 weeks more common by the 6th week. so my point is in a way i would have to agree from the first stages of life then yes it is in the same basis of murder, but because now it is not illegal in most places to get a abortion up to a date from start of pregnancy it cant be considered as murder the definition of murder is as " Murder, the unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice ". for us we aborted well befor there was any sign of a living person and two it is legal here to have a abortion with in the first month of pregnancy. can any one please give me exact chapters or versus that state about murder and or abortions. i would like to read in the bible about this subject for one i always hear " cause the bible says it is wrong " and two i would like to see from the other point of view were religion is comming from as well, i cant argue a point unless i can understand were you and so many other religious people are comming from and were you learning this. so i would like to know were in the bible i can read up on abortion is murder and also from with in the bible the definition of murder.

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trebuchet03 (author)hostkill2007-05-04

can any one please give me exact chapters or versus that state about murder and or abortions.

That's just the thing... In the new testament, there is no direct statement on abortion - it's all interpreted. I actually wrote a paper on this for English comp a few years ago... All of the direct quotes from the new testament will relate to formation in the womb et. al. Such as:

Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)

or
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

But not once is there a reference to abortion... So by technicality the bible doe NOT say abortion is wrong (or okay) or if such an act is an act of "murder". It does, however, say we come from the womb.

Now the old testament is very interesting on the subject. There's a more direct reference, but there's a catch.

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." Exodus 21:22-23

The catch is... under Judaic law, one can not mourn an expelled fetus nor a born child until after thirteen days of birth. Additionally, there are explicit laws stating that it is indeed not a viable living thing until after 40 days. In fact, it goes so far to call it "simple liquid." First born status is not changed i the fetus is expelled before that 40 day period.

Furthermore, the Talmud (basically, the Jewish laws) EXPLICITLY states that should the mother's life be in jeopardy... You are required to abort (there is no choice). Want to read what it says? Here:

"If a woman suffers hard labor in travail, the child (fetus) must be cut up in her womb and brought out piecemeal, for her life takes precedence over its life. If its greater part has already come forth, it must not be touched, for the {claim of one} life cannot supersede {that of another} life."'(Ohalot 7:6)

Here's a website for searching through the testaments - I used this when writing my paper. You can also search citation - to make sure no one is making things up :p

Just passing some items along :)

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jtobako (author)2007-05-15

Turn the question around. When is life valuable? All life? Only human life? Only the creatures I care about-dogs and cats over rats and cows? If I have 3d degree burns over 50% of my body and am going to die a slow and very painful death, is my living valuable-or is my life (and that of those around me) valuable enough to end it without the pain?

The question skips a LOT and presumes even more.

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hostkill (author)2007-05-03

my girlfriend and I had to make this choice of abortion along time ago. she was on the pill and it did not work, so after finding out that she was pregnant and gong to the doctors to make sure, we found out she was almost three weeks going and with taking the pill there could be a chance that there could be a defect or a problem along the line of the pregnancy but by the time we would know for sure it would be to late to do any thing about it, so we made the choice together with in a few hours to go and have a abortion. we not religious and we dont knock religion ether cause i do belive that there is good logic in most religion. In my opinion life starts with the sperm joining with the egg, but that dose not mean that it is alive yet, once there is a heart beat then yes the growing baby is alive (this is just my opinion on this matter), to me that is logic, not a way to feel better about what we done. it was the best decision at the time, for many things. For me life ends when there is no more pulse and brain activity. and life is primary produced with a male and a female, sperm and egg . Im not going to get in to a religious thing cause that would take away from the topic of abortion and opinion. my stance on god is simple, if i cant see it or interact with it then it is not real. now for me religion was writen along time ago to create some type of order in a city that was going out of control and no governance. religion just grew to big for its own good. with how this thread started, we did think about abortion and all of this befor we started having sex, that is why she was on the pill at the time, unfortunately the doctor was giving her the wrong dosage for her body type and all that, now she is on the injection. yes i am for abortion if it is for the right things and not abused. cause people that are having sex should be willing to accept the out come. and that is why people created things to control birth rate. the way i see it people who want to protest againsed abortion or religious groups who is againsed it as well cant think passed there nose, i dont mean to be harsh about it but all i am saying is rather place that energy in making sure people know about how to stop getting pregnant in the first place a lot more effective than fighting about some thing that is already happening and in my case making sure that the people and doctors know how to administer these things like the pill or injection.

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lemonie (author)hostkill2007-05-03

You seem to be blaming your doctor for this 'mistake', yes?
W/ref your stance on God: consider that you can interact with 'it', you just aren't?

L

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hostkill (author)lemonie2007-05-04

ok i can see were you are coming from about blaming the doctor, no i am not blaming the doctor or any one we both has sex we were wrong just expecting the pill to work and then she got pregnant its that simple, and i never said it was a mistake, and no life is a mistake. we were not planning on having a child and still dont for some time. here if you taking medication and it dose not do what it says, the doctors like to find out why and how. and that is what the out come was and our doctor was on the team who researched my gf case. i respect your opinion on religion and every ones opinion for that matter cause i find talking and debating religion and God, interesting. i gave my opinion and i would like the same respect. you belive you can interact with god i dont and that is that, if this was a religious thread and it is not. if it would be ok i would not mind talking about this matter with you in a nother thread or by messages if you would like. im just interested about why you think, people could interact with god.

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lemonie (author)hostkill2007-05-05

I asked that you consider that you can interact with God, because plenty of people believe that they do. You are stating that you can't, because you don't believe it is possible, that answers my question.
I was thinking of posting the following anyway and it seems relevant...
https://www.instructables.com/forum/T0QYXVIF1B3R7NQ/

Regards

L

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trebuchet03 (author)lemonie2007-05-03

My most favorite religious quote is....

When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.

And my second:

Pray: v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.

Just thought it was mildly appropriate :p

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trebuchet03 (author)hostkill2007-05-03

n my opinion life starts with the sperm joining with the egg, but that dose not mean that it is alive yet,

Wow, I've never heard it put that way before... I think I can agree to that :)

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Aeshir (author)2007-04-30

Life is the energy in the body of an animal or plant or whatever other type of life form. The energy can be electric, kinetic, light, or ummm..heat? Whatever type of energy, just energy in general. Life begins (to the unborn single cell inside the mother) when the cell is created. There are millions of cells in the body, and each of those can die, and when it does the energy leaves the cell/body and goes somewhere else (some law of thermo dynamics; "energy can not be created or destroyed." It transfers somewhere else. So when a cell dies the energy goes into the environment, not destroyed, so nothing ever really dies (answer "When does life end?", unless you consider death as the energy leaving the body. So life begins when the energy is transferred to the cell from the mother when it is created. The life has always existed in the environment as energy, so life was created when the universe is created, and it transfers from the organisms, and is recognized as "life".

Good is good, and evil is evil." Now don't call me a nihilist, but good is a point of view. Some life forms do not really have moral values, but that's okay, because the basis of life is to exist. Life is not the end, it is the means. The universe itself is the end. Life exists because it can. So life is not all it's cracked up to be, I guess. It's not the one true governing force. Evolution happens because it can. Life happens because that's how life happens, it continues by reproduction.

NOT A QUOTE, by the way.

Well, I hope that clears it up. But nobody give me any of that "humans are superior from everything else" or creationism crap. Or young Earth creationism crap. That was disproved a while ago. It was in Darwin Awards 4: Intelligent Design (book). There was a really far away star and they calculated by using the light or something (agh, my brain is drained from all the thinking) how far away it was and it was how long it took for the light to get here was older than what young Earth creationists think the Earth is.

Hey, I only just turned 15, don't give me any crap if I said something incorrect :P

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KentsOkay (author)Aeshir2007-05-01

Holy crap man, your a (one of the seven words you can't say on television) phillosephor. I'm nearly 15 and I definelty couldn't have worded it that way. Very good job.

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Aeshir (author)KentsOkay2007-05-01

Well, I still can't do double digit mulitplication (example at bottom) from grade 4 or 5, and I suck at everything else math related (I can't remember even the simplest formulas). And I don't really have any friends.

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KentsOkay (author)Aeshir2007-05-01

Do you have Firefly Studio's Stronghold?

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Aeshir (author)KentsOkay2007-05-02

Nah. I don't like rtss or whateverlys.

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Aeshir (author)KentsOkay2007-05-01

Well, consider yourself lucky then. I pay dearly for that ability (and I don't mean not ever really having a girlfriend).

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Aeshir (author)Aeshir2007-04-30

By the way, does anyone know the homepage or somewhere's of Halo Map Tools? I'm writing an Instructable and I need a download link (I like to point to the creator).

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Aeshir (author)Aeshir2007-04-30

I guess, reincarnation exists then. If the energy goes from one body to another, it's the life energy.

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Aeshir (author)Aeshir2007-04-30

Whoops. I forgot to put in the second set of quotations in the second paragraph.

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VIRON (author)2007-05-01

Abortion: Quite simply done with intent to stop life from happening. For whatever reason. oops, I'm gonna have a baby, no, I'll stop it! My neighbors think there ain't enough room in the universe for one more! What a shame! Did anyone notice that RU-486 (a name for an abortion pill) is not any particular chemical name, but a wicked silly way of saying (as in text code) "ARE YOU FOR IT ALL GONE"? If as much effort were put into living as dying then after putting a man on the moon he could live for 1000 years, at least. In the "rat race", what do you "win" when you get to the "finish"? If as much imagination was put into wonderful and beautiful things as terrible things, then things might be more wonderful. Joy to the world. If someone knew the profound meaning of the name of the creator, and then denied he existed, in effect someone denies existing, and becomes depressed, and becomes unable to seek the possibilities of a long wonderful life. Suicide (and claiming you don't exist) is not a punishment, it's a choice. Y'all, why not Live long and prosper? (Jesus said) Hate (wishing someone dead) is murder, and it's often said that two wrongs don't make a right, and there must be at least... "one wrong"... in a rape (Logically!). But it's not the Bas***d's fault! WAR is a mass after-birth abortion.

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LasVegas (author)VIRON2007-05-01

And exactly where did you get that bible quote? Does the Anti-Abortion groups (They aren't pro-life, since they advocate killing abortion doctors), have their own bible?

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VIRON (author)LasVegas2007-05-01

search says it's redundant, for example "1 john 3:15" is
"whoever hateth his brother is a murderer,
and no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him"
Another at, Matthew 5:21-22.
Bible quotes obviously come from the bible but
the line I wrote was a paraphrase from memory, (Hi James = hello Jim)
and how should I know what anti-abortion groups do?
All -isms and -ologies are small nonsense to me.
They are tiny little worlds with boundaries I can not see.
Someone asked for input on the topic and I think mine was mostly "logical".

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HamO (author)2007-05-01

You don't beleive in God? Do you really think that of this (everything) just happened. We really just crawled out of the ocean. Life begins at conception. If there is no conception, there is no life. Birth control prevents conception. If a life does not occur with just the head out of the vagina is it not life one minute before that. A fetus has a heartbeat, it does "eat and breath" thru the cord. A one year old child can't reproduce, but we would not consider killing one for that reason. It's not a choice, it's CHILD. My rant for the day. Bless us all.

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westfw (author)2007-05-01

Abortion is a really tough question because it's hard to accept that the BEST solution to a problem may not be a GOOD solution to the problem. (And I think that I worded that carefully enough that you can use it either way.)

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LasVegas (author)2007-04-30

Good and evil are human creations. Is a wolf evil when it fights another wolf for dominance of the pack? Is a dog evil when it catches and kills a cat? No to both. They are simply acting on their natures. Only humans have defined evil and it changes as society changes.

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jtobako (author)2007-04-30

Define 'good'. Or 'evil'. If you could do that, you would solve most of the worlds problems. You get into trouble when people are involved-what's good for one person can easily end up as evil to another.

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carbon (author)2007-04-30

Bear with me, the laptop I'm currently using is acting up. I'll respond when I can. Good stuff, already. Thanks, everyone.

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trialex (author)2007-04-30

You can't be PROVEN wrong, because that's your opinion. Just out of interest, do you beleive in birth control? MY opinion is that it's ALWAYS the women's (and to a lesser extent the man's) choice. What about a scenario where a serial murderer, who's family tree has a history of genetic disorders, rapes a woman. Should it be her choice to terminate a pregnancy as a result of the rape?

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Aeshir (author)trialex2007-04-30

I didn't know rape could last that long. I thought the chick would punch him in the face or something before THAT happened.

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Weissensteinburg (author)Aeshir2007-04-30

Are you serious? People are forced to become pregnant all the time because of rape.

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Aeshir (author)Weissensteinburg2007-04-30

I honestly didn't know. I'm only 15, and I'm homeschooled so I don't get out much...

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