Does anybody wonder why there are only five of us in this group?
I am not a vegetarian for health benefits. I am a vegetarian because in my (not so humble) opinion meat tastes bad. It's as simple as that.
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Indeed, but those that proclaim to be vegan, which is normally just a vegetarian with an attitude ;-) that is, they feel superior in that they do not want to harm any life form.....but happily use mouth wash to kill germs, swat flies, cook foods (destroying good and bad germs), feed their carnivorous animals veggies, when neither their teeth nor digestive systems are made for it, and etc. It is those that I have issue with, not sensible people like you or I. :-)
Well, I am not exactly a vegetarian. I don't eat processed meat, but I do eat meat that my family has hunted!
FYI, to anyone who reads this: I may have said a lot of stupid things earlier on this thread and others on this website, but I sincerely apologize to anyone whom I may have offended and/or pissed off. At the time of these arguments I had recently become vegetarian, so I suppose it was kind of my "new thing." I feel that I have really matured over this last year, and I hope that disputes like those aforementioned never have to happen again. Thank you all.
There are just reasons upon reasons for it The ones that speak to me the most are the vast environmental benefits If you ever get the chance to look up water consumption in regards to meat, do it. Interresting concept. I met the author of "Diet for a Small Planet," a fantastic informational book. Animal rights, health benefits, and just the concept of putting the carcass of the innocent in your mouth and letting it creep through your whole body in order to fuel your day, all good reasons. Plus, there's tons of yummy food and a cool community that goes with it. Save the world! :)
And as "fun" as it is to put a carcass in your mouth and let it "creep through" your body, in this day and age, it's completely unnecessary and entirely inefficient. We as humans can get the fuel we need from other foods and health supplements, and we don't even need as much fuel as compared to our ancestors who had to work much harder just to feed their families and themselves.
I'm not trying to sound unsupportive, or negative in any way shape or form, or trying to get you to eat meat, but:
Why are you vegetarian?
Just curious on exactly why vegetarians are vegetarians. I've always been curious.
I think he's already been quite vocal about that...if you go through his comments he goes into quite a bit of detail on why he's vegetarian, and why you should be, too. And why you stink if you aren't.
I didn't say you stink, but I am making you try and feel guilty *hehe*
I think that's why there aren't many people in your group. People here want hard evidence, not emotional appeal.
oh, I have hard evidence... *chuckles like a mad scientist*
My point is that you do not offer it, but instead "try to make me feel guilty". And that's why you get adverse reactions.
Quick question: Are you vegetarian/vegan?
No, and any leanings I had towards it previously were sort of ruined by all of this, to be perfectly honest.
Ok, I apologize if it was my arguing or coming off as rude that may have turned you away, but you should remember that you can't judge a person from an online chat, so that's probably why these discussions get so heated.http://xkcd.com/438/read this, then scroll over it with your mouse and it has a little message...I really only have one thing to say. There is so much good you can do for the world by going vegetarian, and you shouldn't care how other people act about it. If arguments come up then just ignore them for the most part. I know I have a tendency to argue vegetarianism, but most people don't so you shouldn't base your opinions off of asses like me :)
Okay, thank you. And I'd like to add I don't mind at all you trying to change my mind - if you truly believe I and/or the world would be benefited by doing or not doing a certain thing, you would be irresponsible not to! - but I appreciate it more and am more likely to respond when people appeal to my head, not my heart, and also respect my right to disagree/ hold a different opinion.
Yes, I like that xkcd (try /404 for a funny one ;). Quite true, really.
I just joined. Go veggies!
May I ask your reasons why?
I've been vegetarian all my life. My parents, brother, sister, and basically everyone in my family is. I also can't stand the idea of eating something that was once living, and the way it was treated e.g. livestock farming. I've been looking at the discussions on this forum, and it seems you guys have been having a pretty heated discussion :)
They generally started out pretty heated until we "sat down" and actually discussed reasons why or why not. A lot of it was probably my fault, and I have been called a troll because I like finding arguments online :). I originally started out vegetarian a few months ago for the reasons of animal cruelty in factory farms, but that evolved to just not killing animals in the first place. I also found out through research that going veggie also helps people in less developed countries get water and food, and that the meat industry is the number one polluter on planet Earth, so a triple whammy I guess :).
I've had a thought...
Is it my imagination, or is vegetarianism less of a "big thing" in the UK than in the US?
I am an omnivore, and thoroughly enjoy a serving of dead animal, yet I also enjoy vegetarian dishes.
Any restaurant or pub you go to will have a decent selection of vegetarian dishes to choose from, and I know of no parents who are phased or upset by a child bringing home a vegetarian friend.
In my student days, people were as likely to be vegetarian for financial reasons as moral, and many cafes are quietly vegetarian because the food preparation regulations are easier to meet (UK readers - many National Trust premises are vegetarian for that reason).
Yet it seems that US vegetarians have to make a big fuss to get their life-choice taken on board - they have to flash horror movies at people to get them to consider the source of their meat.
If you will forgive the comparison, it seems that some American families would be as upset by their child bringing a vegetarian round today as a white family would have been if their child had brought a coloured friend home in the fifties.
Am I wrong?
In my group of friends that doesn't always apply - if I eat out with the vegetarian friends I have we can always find a place to eat, and we all eat that way so as not to kill their appetites during supper.
However, most of the older generations and the children of those people are not as open. Many of the parents of my friends cannot understand being a vegetarian, and many of their children grew up eating fast food and TV dinners and cannot seem to expand what they eat. I have friends that refuse to eat anything but sandwiches. :P
And you also have to understand that the farming industry goes hand in hand with Republican politics here - they get a ton of support, and they've done extensive marketing campaigns to get people to eat more red meat, eat more chicken, eat buffalo, drink more milk, etc.
As I get further and further into my profession, I feel as though I'm digging myself into a gigantic public health pit. Americans as a whole are quite ignorant when it comes to food. They refuse to see other ways of eating, even if all they eat is fast food and they feel bad all the time. They're too scared of change and they don't like doing the work to feel better.
Americans as a whole are quite ignorant when it comes to food.Of course you don't mean all Amricans.
"Any restaurant or pub you go to will have a decent selection of vegetarian dishes to choose from"
I think not. Any restaurant or pub you go to will have a selection of vegetarian dishes at the least, but the choice is limited. And some of these are fish.
It's a bit like saying any Indian or Chinese restaurant with have a selection of English dishes.
Although I suppose it depends upon where you live and what you call "any"?
Not in my case. I fully endorse eating a LOT of veggies, but it is a potentially hazardous route to go if one is not careful (my wife knows this by experience). So it is always a worry if someone's child wants to do something dangerous.
I'm sorry, but i think it's funny that I was eating meat(pork chops) while reading this.
One reason might be because not everyone knows that your group exists. Perhaps your group members could advertise it in your instructables, or member page.
make that 6
Yay! another member!
Without doing any research (which is the best way to jump to the very highest conclusions), I think that being omnivorous goes hand-in-hand with Making.
I mean, all those useful materials wandering past, but we're not supposed to exploit them...
We evolved as omnivores, and all our early tool-making skills were centred around obtaining animal products.
In a long-term survival situation, animals are a vital raw material.
Yes, we evolved that way, but we also evolved by raping women and killing other humans. Does that make those things right as well? Just because we did it before doesn't mean we should do it now. In our society we don't need meat to survive, whereas our primitive ancestors did. Besides, in our society, most of our skills for making tools are based off of other tools. Meat was a good spring board, but it is no longer neccesary.
...we also evolved by raping women and killing other humansI hope you are speaking for yourself only. I personally feel I would never have any cause to do harm to anyone of my own species. Other species are food however, just as with most carnivores, or omnivores. but it is no longer neccesary.Actually, for the health and mental well-being of most persons, eating meat is an absolute necessity (i.e. it is necessary for them). I don't doubt that a diet consisting of a LOT of vegetables, is VERY healthy, but it not consistent with our palate. What one is deprived of, can be devastating to one's personality. I know that anyone that denies me the wide variety of types of food stuffs available...including insects, would meet with deserved opposition. But, I always listen to reasonable discussion. Telling me what I can and can not do, however; is a bit beyond the amount of power I wish to give anyone. I am now in my 50's and my parent, you are not. ;-)
for humans today eating meat is about as necessary as lighting the home with candles. it is necessary for them only to let them say i eat meat like a normal person by their definition of normal. nutritionally meat can be entirely replaced by vegetarian foods which are only healthier
humanity might have needed meat in the past. today the condiotion is 180 opposite. humanity needs to stop eating meat to survive
why ? our world is in ecological crysis. meat industry needs huge area of fields to grow (veg !) stuff to feed the animals. of this stuff the absolute most turns into poo and unused parts of dead bodies (both in quantities that are challenge even to mother nature to do something with). atmost few percents are turned into usefull food for humans. thats A MEGA WASTE. if humans ate veg food only a fraction of the existing fields could feed everyone it feeds now + solve ALL hunger problems in the third world. all the other area could be converted back to rain forests and help the earth too
it makes orders of magnitude more effect than changing lightbulbs and insulating. we need to do that if we simply want to keep life on planet earth in existence
for humans today eating meat is about as necessary as lighting the home with candles.You misunderstand what I meant by necessary...a good portion of the population would freak, if you took away their car, home (and gave them a tent), children, or their meat. For most of the population, it is psychologically needed. These things CAN be changed, but they can not be forced. Let's face it, you will not be able to influence the majority of people out there. So, instead of trying to change the unchangeable, work on those things that actually NEED changing. As grandma would say, you catch many more flies with honey then with vinegar. You can get a whole lot more to rally behind the cause of animal treatment, and waste, then you can get to stop partaking of food. I am just trying to be realistic, you know?
there is difference between car home children <----------------> meat (and let me add candles) people freak out easily. officer karl explaind around here why. they live in their happy bubble and dont want to change everything that (to them) means bursting it changing animal treatment is made not as much for the animals but for those people - so they will feel more comfortable in their bubble (after seeing a youtube link some1 sent them and cursing him all day later). in fact it'll have the exact opposite effect than wanted on the animals. animals will continue to suffer (an unnoticable tiny bit of their dreadful life less) but the actual solution (people going vegs) will be frozen down noticably cause of those unnoticable improvements in animal wellfare changing animal treatment does not affect the ecology at all. fields are still grown to turn into poo. humans in the 3rd world are starving to death. rain forests are in crysis. all that cause some people want to have dead pokemons for dinner to feel normal with. thats what really freaking out bursting the bubble (and going veggie) IS the only real solution to the problem. but yea pople dont like to burst bubbles. THAT is the real problem to burst bubble like that we need to introduce and present the real world outside the bubble. you are right in that a hammer won't work here. therefore the challenge is how to burst the bubble without force. to make people understand the difference between the psychological feeling that they are ok cause they eat meat and a planet standing on the edge of cliff and real physical suffer and death of animals and humans
I lived with and around farmers, I do not live in a happy bubble, so my explanation, using myself as a reference point, can't be argued with that way. humans in the 3rd world are starving to deathas governments pay farmers to NOT use all their potential fields for crop,.,been there understand all that. An overstocking of crops causes deflation and the farmers don't make enough to personally give it away to those countries....so the economy of farming is kept to a minimum for the sake of the rich. This has nothing to do with raising a steer for meat or a swine for bacon. You might say that, for those that are violently oppose to either side, they BOTH live in their own little worlds. Both sides have their misconceptions about reality, about what is really going on, about the psychology of the whole situation, and about what can really be done (and the reality is, you will not be changing most of the USA into vegetarians). One fellow I know from Texas, for instance, wrote to me about REAL Texas chili: he said something like chili with BEANS in it? REAL chili doesn't have beans in it (which means, chili has meat in it, period). This is just a minor example, but the attitude is prevalent. I personally am not arguing against vegetarians nor their lifestyle, I do think that, at least leaning in the direction is healthy, BUT, I don't want my life to be limited either, and that includes my taste buds :-) Been there, done that, saw lives nearly destroyed from being forced to do something they could not abide by.....the shock was so great to one person their immune system went on the warpath. I suppose, if I were to give you some advice, I would say, try NOT to sound preachy, like the h3ll fire and brimstone preachers, and calmly inform those willing to listen. Once you get a greater audience, you may have more force behind you, but right now, the majority will feel comfortable where it is at, and forcefulness will only isolate you all the more.
i see no reason why not to go veg except for a bubble (which may be happy bubble or just belief that vegs are limiting themselfes) and the way farm economics are working (and maybe medical conditions for some individuals)
i am not economist. but i understand a bit in bubbles
what i understand is partially what you said - that force won't work and will only make anti reaction. another thing (and here i disagree with you) is that you cant estimate your success in bursting bubbles. i cant say that i am able to convert most americans to go veg. you cant say that i cant do that either
with that understood there is only 1 way to go - do my best without employing a hammer and accept the results i can reach. let alone veg stuff. this way is the most correct way in life in general
Besides, I know that making the entire world veggie won't happen in my lifetime, we're still getting past racism in our own country, but just by making a few people change their minds, I'm making a difference. Just think about how much meat you'll eat in your life...
problem is different but similar. people live in a movie and dont understand that they are just humans with lot of positive power that wants to get realized. realized and not blocked by some superstitions
which ties in to the whole bubble thing...
we'd live in a whole another world if everyone was following one simple rule
be and let be
How far is that taken? be and let be. How about the swarm of flies that has taken up residence in the kitchen? The mice that live in the walls of most domiciles. The roaches that can get into homes without them being very dirty? All living beings, or is it just those beings that one chooses to let be. And let me forgo some of the arguments right away; sometimes it is impossible to use human traps on mice, most times one can not capture roaches, flies, etc. and so they are either lived with or eradicated. Also, I am not trying to be ignorant here, I am trying to understand.....since I have never gotten an acceptable answer to these questions. Is it ok to kill if it threatens your life or well being?
in addition to be and let be you should have a head. in second thought you cant be if you dont allready have one
we dont have mice but used to have a lot of ledians in the summer
my parents believe that the way to deal with them is to spray them with whatever advertised on tv. it does not work. the population is too huge to be affected. us the humans and our planet are affected more
what works very well is going thru the home with a window sealant gun and injecting it into every tiny crack where walls meet floor etc. it leaves the ledians outside. it solves the problem for years and not for one day. and is a perfect example of live and let live
it does not work. the population is too huge to be affected. I believe a line from Black Moon fits here...."they don't change, they just become immune...." I just mean that, if it is cruelty to an animal that is the problem, then one has to be more or less concerned about the mice / rats that eat certain poisons, and dehydrate to death by a painful process. Mice and rats can chew through about 1 to 2 inches of concrete, and get through a hole they make the size of a quarter. Again, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am interested since, it is nearly impossible to keep animals (including bugs) outside. Are you just concerned about the survival of animals? Or also about how they are treated? Does a fly hanging on flypaper make you cringe because it dies by starvation? (it bothers me to some extent...I try to catch them and release them).
everyhing done by humans to animals which is harmfull to the animals is bad
it is not ok to do if there is viable other solution
Again, how far is that taken? Do germs count? They are living creatures (viruses are questionable, but germs are definitely living).
can you apply this to plants ?
hint : i do eat plants
If so, we would have nothing to sustain us. We only eat plants and meat as a whole. So that is really my question, is there a line of demarcation? And why draw the line there? Why are some animals slaughtered without a care (germs, both good ones and bad ones) and others not? If we speak of living, rather then "animal life" then we enter a whole new world.
If one works backwards from Humans and down the line of life, what makes one living thing better than another? Is it sentience? Is it having legs, and a torso? (that leaves out jellyfish and germs) One must morally either accept all (non-poisonous) life as a food source, or they could end up in the paradox of being unable to eat anything. OR, they must make concessions along the way, excuses for harming some animals and not others.
i'd agree with officer karl in where to put the line
animals who can feel that we kill or make them pain
animals (or whatever else) who can't feel that
point for thought - can you apply this to your computer ? it is not living at all. and yet it can in some sense feel when you are bad to it and misbehave as result. stuff like throwing it in a tight and dusty ~~factory farm~~ corner under your desk where it accumulates ~~dirt~~ dust and ~~suffocates~~ overheats untill it ~~gets ill~~ starts to malfunction from that. or like ~~letting it out in bad weater~~ connecting to internet without ~~warm clothes~~ firewall
you could in a much more accurate sense, apply this to some crystalline substances....