12 years ago
There's nowhere to "go", but since I won't actually be, that's not a problem.
12 years ago
Are you 100 percent sure there is no where to go after death??? Think about it, life would be pointless, what would we live for?
I am absolutely certain, and life is not pointless.The point of living is to make life better, for yourself and others. I am a husband, father, teacher, friend - all these things are part of me making life better for others.
Thats awfully superficial, so earth is all there is and all that matters? What if there is a Heaven and Hell? consider it just for a minute, dont you want there to be more after death? I know i do, cause we have such a short time here on this planet.
What is superficial about the universe?
I did not exist before I was born, how can my mind - an emergent property of the electrochemical interactions of my brain cells - continue to exist after my brain is dead?
Just because I don't relish the idea of dying, I am not going to pretend to myself that i will carry on.
I amswer for my actions in the here-and-now. I don't expect some great reward or disproportionate punishement after i am gone. I don't have to have a big stick waved at me to behave, nor do I need bribing. I do the right thing because it is the right thing.
By what do you base your standards of right and wrong
PS: our minds cant comprehend existence nor death, our brains dont live but our spirit does live on.
Dont you want to live happily after you die??
General comment about morality;It evolves."Morality" is an emergent function of a society, a zeitgeist.As the society changes, so does the morality against which that society measures itself.For instance - I am sure that everybody reading this post will agree that slavery is immoral, yet it is not so many generations ago that households taking in "brute natives" and forcing them to dress, speak, act and believe their way was their moral duty.Even within living memory, casualties of WWII were reported en masse, anonymously. When individual battles cost thousands of lives, the public tutted, but considered it necessary. Today, casualties are reported individually, by name, and hands are thrown up in horror when a conflict's casualties reach two or three figures.You, dear reader, are separated from the morality of the Bible by thousands of miles and thousands of years. It is unrealistic an unnatural to expect a modern, educated society to blindly follow a set of behavioural rules laid down for an illiterate, largely agrarian society.
Well, since you seem to know everything about me...i wanted to know where you learned you right and wrongs ... not people and past societies, its a simple question.
I have a feeling that you are not very open to other peoples beliefs... you do know that there is a possibility that you could be wrong/ right?
. Judging by his many postings on Ibles, I'd say that Mr. Kiteman is very open to other ppl's beliefs. But that doesn't mean he accepts every belief at face value. It appears that, in the spirit of the Scientific Method, he evaluates each belief and compares it to what he has learned about how the world works. I'd be willing to bet a substantial sum that if you can show him credible evidence for the existence of an after-life, he will change his mind. I'd also bet that asking disingenuous questions won't get the job done.. Like a lot of those who have made it through their teens, he has had plenty of time to think about all the Big Questions (right/wrong, religion, &c). Going by his posts again, it looks like he has spent more time than most doing so. He has reached some conclusions that make sense to him, using evidence that he finds credible. I don't always agree with him, but I have to respect the fact that he tries to educate himself and not make decisions in a fog of ignorance.Disclaimer: I do not speak for Kiteman. These are only the impressions I have gotten since I joined Ibles. I may have read him wrong.
Where have I claimed to know all about you?
I learned right and wrong where most people learn it, by following the examples of my parents, peers and teachers. As Nacho says, I have since questioned those standards, and adjusted them as I see fit. I still do.
Of course there is a possibility that I am wrong. I frequently am, but I acknowledge that fact, grow and move on. I do not fearfully cling to a dogmatic set of claims that have no basis in fact or logic.
If I am wrong about the impermanence of existance, then prove it. Show me that the intellect, that self-awareness is independent of the brain's functions and existance. Provide a logical process whereby a complex biochemical network can be maintained without material support.
Until you can, then I stand by my claims, proud to be mortal, proud to be free.
Neither do i cling to claims frearully, im not afraid because i know what my life is for, to bring others to believe in god, and my questions arent disingeneous, Nacho, ... As far as i know , there is no physical proof of heaven... but i do know of people dying and coming back to life... later they remeber experiencing this pit of fire and could hear people screaming for help, look it up, thats proof.. But if all you want is proof that you can see, then i cant help you, "Seeing isnt Believing, Believing is seeing"
The whole point of your life is make others think theirs are lacking something? That's quite sad, really.
If you're making those claims it as proof, then a reference should be easy to provide.
If by "dying", you mean "no pulse or breathing", then that is quite a common thing to recover from. People with sleep apnoeia (sp?) do it every night. It's hardly surprising that they have nightmares.
If you mean "Near Death EXperiences", then they have been easily recreated in the lab, simply by using strong electromagnets to trigger various parts of the brain.
Anecdotes, though, are not evidence, so feel free to check my facts.
By the accepted standards of scientific methodology, you are making what are known as "extraordinary claims" - that is, claims which do not fit the currently-accepted model. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to generate a paradigm shift. They did it with evolution 200 years ago, they did it with plate tectonics fifty years ago. Can you provide that level of evidence for your claims?
I cant provide physical evidence, like i told you befor.. And actually near death experiences are real, what about the nonbelievers that have come bakc from death and have seen hell? how could so many people have made it up and why? actually you are correct, the point of my life is to make others see that nothing of this world can/will feel that hole or longingness... therefore they need Jesus to help them along in their paths of life.....
Good point about the proof, but i must point out that i think you dont believe in anything phenomenal, miracle- like or spiritual, correct me if im wrong
I know NDEs are real - I described above how they are recreated in the lab. They are a real, measurable, explicable phenomenon, and they involve no supernatural intervention to occur.I have heard no stories of non-believers experiencing hell as part of an NDE. In fact, reports of NDEs are universally "nice" - tunnel of light, feeling welcome, all the traditional images of the approach to heaven.I feel no hole in my life, I feel nothing is lacking, yet I do not follow your faith. Ergo, your conclusion that I need Jesus to help me follow my life is wrong. You are right to think that I do not believe in unrepeatable or unrecordable phenomena for which no evidence exists, and which violate the basic laws of reality. Why should any intelligent, educated human being need to rely on a myth to give themselves meaning?
Read the book.. ONE HEARTBEAT AWAY, the author writes on instances where people he knows had NDE"S and they got the Hell part. I beg to differ that i am wrong but time will tell, you are stubborn and i only hope that this will have made you think about ... FYI not everything goes according to the BASIC LAWS OF REALITY, what a bore it would be to only follow those scientific theories called facts...... Goodbye and God Bless you
. I've got a better idea: you read up on perception, memory, &c. You will quickly see that the brain can create fantastic, yet seemingly realistic, perceptions and memories. For memory, Elizabeth Loftus is an excellent place to start.. What you call stubborn, many would call strength of conviction. It's all in your POV. From where I'm sitting you look pretty stubborn.. Do you have a link to TBLoR?. > what a bore it would be to only follow those scientific theories called facts. I'd say that pretty well sums it up. Who could possibly have any use for facts?
your right, i am stubborn and strong in my beliefs, it is truly wonderful to have security after death, i will read about the perception only if you are willing to read ONE HEART BEAT AWAY.. I also agree with you that facts Blah, who needs 'em.
> i will read about the perception only if you are willing to...
. That is exactly the attitude that makes you ineffective when proselytizing. Why should anything I do have an effect on you trying to educate yourself?
. I think one of my favorite quotes is most appropriate here. "Refusing to attempt to understand, willful ignorance, that is as near as my worldview can get to "sin" as I'd care to go." - Kiteman
> Whats TBLoR??
. "the BASIC LAWS OF REALITY"
. That comment was a much too clumsy way of trying to say that I don't think you have a clue as to what "reality" is.
despite what you think cause your sooo smart, it doesnt really matter to me.
. That's just it, I don't think I'm smart, wise, or learned. The more I learn the more I realize just how ignorant I really am. You, on the other hand, seem to think that you have all the right answers. I'm willing to admit that I might be wrong - all I ask for is some credible evidence to the contrary and I'll change my mind.. You may be right, but you will never convince me (or many others here) of such with you petty games. If you have a point to make, a question to ask, or whatever, be forthright about it. At least until you can learn to do it without being so transparent.
... FYI not everything goes according to the BASIC LAWS OF REALITY...Give one proven example.Goodbye and God Bless youI bet you gritted your teeth when you typed that :-D
actually i did not gritt my teeth, i meant it, i wish you well and hope that this topic has not turned you off, Bye
Far from it. As Nacho mentioned elsewhere, I do a lot of thinking around the Big Questions.I have yet to find anything to sway me to the theist or deist POV, though.Like I said; proud to be mortal.
. disingenuous: not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of frankness.. . You tell us you only want to make ppl think, yet you flag Heaven as Best Answer. I stand by my statement.
Because it is the BEST answer, even if you refuse to believe it...
Conversely, there are other people who think that "nowhere" is the best answer, even if you refuse to believe it.
we would live for life. the short time we have here. that is it. then we are gone forever.
. Same place I'd go if I were doing anything else.
which would be where?
. If you're trying to be "cute," this is an epic fail. I understood what you were asking and purposefully gave an obtuse answer. If you want to proselytize, go ahead and be up front about it. See NobodyInParticular's comment of Mar 8, 2009. 8:32 PM.
I was not trying to come across as cute, so ... obviously i can see that you are not open to conversation on this topic since you wish to be cryptic. Im sorry for miscommunication, i was just confused.
. I am open to any reasonable discussion, but must admit that, after over 50 years of contemplating The Meaning Of Life, religion, &c, you are not likely to change my mind.
. Obtuse, not cryptic - there's a difference. You, on the other hand, are being disingenuous.
. If you really want to know what ppl think about the hereafter, just ask. Do you really think your silly line of questioning will convert anyone?
Im not trying to convert people, im not going to force anything on anyone. I asked the question to make people think.... i hope something happens in your future that will broaden your horizons to there being something more after we die
. You are very transparent. Proselytizing/conversion is EXACTLY what what you are trying to do.
. I seriously doubt that my future is going to be long enough for much broadening.
. I have been dead before (heart surgery that didn't go quite as planned) - it's not a bad thing.
you have no way to know what i am trying to do, because you are not me. Its very sad that you feel you will die soon, and not even realize that there is eternal condemnation for those who do not believe in Jesus Christ.
I hope you will not mind if i pray for you...
. I may not know exactly what you are thinking, but your behaviors are consistent with that of many other misguided proselytizers.
. Do not be sad. I have had a much better Life than most ppl on this Earth. I have no complaints if today is my last.
. I find it rather interesting that you point out eternal condemnation rather than the hope of Salvation. Methinks you were being disingenuous (yeah, I love that word) when you told Kiteman "Neither do i cling to claims frearully".
. I do not mind at all if you pray for me. I think your efforts would be better spent elsewhere, but go ahead.
I just wanted to point out salvation and condemnation, because you seem so closed to there being a life after this, i mentioned the condemnation, im not scared because i know where i will go, and i honestly and full heartedly hope that i will see you there too,
I will pray for you because everyone is important
. I have reach conclusions about religion, ethics, &c, but I am not closed to any credible evidence that shows my conclusions are wrong. As a matter of fact, I encourage and welcome it. I want to be right.
. So far, you have shown me nothing other than the fact that you think most of us are not smart enough to see through you.
. I tend to look at The Big Picture and say nobody is important in the long run.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with preaching. Just do not pretend to be asking a question when you actually mean to be giving an answer.People will appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. Some will listen. (And some still will not. But that's not your problem.)Answers is section of this site where you can get answers, whereas the Instructables guides themselves are for giving the answers.
And what answers am i trying to give?
Whenever I have heard your question asked, it was always as a rhetorical one.
However, if you are just asking because you don't know what answers people will give and you want to find out, then by all means this is the right place to ask.
Ok, i will rephrase my question, If you were to die suddenly ... here infront of your computer, where would you spend eternity (not ur body) ur soul?
And FYI i have studied most philosophies and found that most are pick aprt religions where one can do and be to his/her own choosing cause they are there own boss/god
The (presumably still rhetorical) question is improving somewhat. The "suddenly" and "here in front of your computer" are still unnecessary, but "eternity" and "your soul" are good clarifications. I would put your remark about philosophies a bit more delicately. For example, "I have studied philosophies like _name one_ as taught by _name a major person who supports it, _ and _name another philosophy_ as taught by _name its major supporter_. Parts of them seem similar to or derived from religions that I am familiar with. However, I disagree with their conceptions of self-determination."
Islam, Budhist, Athiest, Mormons, Amish, Wiccans, Catholics, Agnostics..... i have learned these religions from a class offered at my school... And i liked the way i worded my question, so none of it is unecessary to me
Also nothing, nobody, and no anything you could possibly think of.
Are you sure, like 120%?