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Magnetmotor - really impossible or just supressed? Answered

When someone starts talking about a so called magnetmotor than most people judge right away.
Laws of physics, perpetuum mobile is impossible, magnets are static....

We all know the limitations nature puts on us... That however did not stop quite a few people since the 1950's to build working magnet motors. Or, to be precise: To make the claim, show them and then somehow disappear. A few though seem to have survived and even claim to make good business. Securely closed machine, stellite tracking and 24/7 online monitoring. Either just a bad and long running hoax or a real attempt to keep a secret secret. Even the somewhat famous Yildiz motor showed off around the world only to disappear.

Some like them, some don't. Either way all this sounds like the perfect conspirary theory LOL So lets take a look on what is fake and what might be real but missing some vital clues. You can find several good Youtube channels created by people trying to build a working magnet motor. Some of them have no problems to admit failure and still keep trying and updating their projects. Did long enough and you see two outcomes. The first is giving up or "realising" that it will never work. The second often seems like a user is getting some relly good results and is really close to keep the magnetmotor running. Both disappear without and updates or traces. Now of course this is just confirmation that it will never work, but then again: What if it did already quite a few times? Even Tesla had patents for a magnetmotor and so far none of his patents were a hoax. Although none of his patents allow to actually build a working devices without some additional info and knowledge. And that is the key that I am trying to get: The lost knowledge.

How can a magnetmotor never work? That one is quite simple from the start. If a linear model won't work no matter where you start then a rotary version will fail as well. And if a linear version works, it has to do so far at least 5 segments and with preferably increasing or at least constant speed. Having said that and assuming you know a little bit about magnetism: Ever wondered about shapes of magnets?? The common types are block, round like a bar and those disk like ones, some even with holes. A less well known version is the ring magnet. You can look them up as well as their corresponding magnetic field geometry - or what is assumed to be the right geometry. To give you a clue: All those floating spinning toys use a ring magnet in the base and onother one in the spinner. In the center is a dead zone for the magnetic field that is far lower than further out on the ring. And the strnger outer fields also reach further - giving the entire spinner a bowl like area to float on, the spinning just stabilises it like a gyroscope. A similar flat disk magnet wouldn't have this indentation in the field but rather a dome like sphere. The ring just kicks a dint into this sphere if you don't mind the simpification. Similar changes in the field structure happen when you combine two or more magnets. One example we all know is stacking identical smaller magnets. And often we are suprised how much stronger two thin disk magnets are compared to a single. Distance however sets a certain limit. And take those hook magnets... Just a small ring magnet in a metal pot with core. Remove the magnet and just by itself it is far weaker. Why? Quite simple.... The same way a transformer core directs the magnetic flow, the metal part of the hook magnet provides a shortcut for the magnetic field - and in return all is much stronger ;) Now you have some more clues, but still there are tons of options for failure... The most common is the sticking effect. No matter how well you planned and designed in most cases you linear or rotary prototype will stall sooner or later. Even if started manually at high speeds some seem to run very long but once they slow down and stop it is obvious they always stop where the magnetic field won't allow the binding effect to be overcome.

Wouldn't dare to say that I have a working magnetmotor, but I might have some clues you want to try if you decide to give it a try yourself. So how COULD a magnetmotor actually work? Like in the Perendiv examples all over the web, you could aloow a moving responder to the rotor. Like a piston the responder will be lifted in areas it would otherwise limit or reduce the speed of the system. Well designed only a few mm would b required but it also means wasted energy to move the responder. Then there is the nice way of modifying fields by adding magnets in different angles and polarities. Lets say towards the end of your stages on the linear model it is hard to overcome the binding effect from the end of the previous stage. The perendiv model would now somehow change the distances. But you can also add magnets to lower the binding effect ;) Like a ring or hook magnet you can shape the field and offer a stronger repulsin field or a lower binding force. Last but certainly not least is the option of adding magnetic metals like iron or somehow weirder ones like bismuth. So, do we have any examples of something very common utilising any of this? We sure do :) Take a speaker apart and you end with the cage, the membrane, the actual work coil and the magnet. We don't need anything but the magnet so take a good and very close look. What in the audio world is called a shield to prevent the magnet from messing with things close by is exactly the same as on a hook magnet ;) Only difference is the tiny gap for the coil. The magnetic field is directed into two paths, one by the metal core, the other by the inner enclosure of the magnet or the magnet itself. The coil operates in the area of maximum flux.

Last hints... If you take two identical and strong magnets with north or south facing up then it is quite hard to push them very close together. But check what happens if you try the same wen both soth poles (or both north poles) are placed on a magnetic surface - if in doubt your standard fridge door. Suddenly you can move much closer together with the same amout of force (not considering the added friction!). And similar story for opposing configurations. Where in free air or on a table the magnets would just jump together, on a metal plated you can move them much, much closer before this happens. Copper pipe and magnet fun :) Ideally you would have a straight copper pipe and a cylindrical magnet that has a loose fit in the pipe. Aluminium pipe work too or even a roll of aluminium foil if you have nothing else. A magnet in the pipe will travel very slow down the pipe, friction is not an issue here. So what is slowing it down? The magnet creates a field in the pipe and through that the pipe generates electicity. And funny enough this electricity creates an opposing magnetic field in the pipe - the magnet slows down. Even if you glue it onto a wooden stick it won't rush through it. Trying to push it by hand and you feel the created resistance. The faster you push, the harder it is to push! If you made it all the way down here with the reading then I have to assume you fit into one of three of my categories. a) You are a total sceptic and just read it for your amusement. If so, then please don't post a reply with usual negative feedback, instead see it as the same fun you had reading it ;) b) You are at least curious and like to play with magnets. In this case take the above as inspiration to explore more ways to have fun with your magnets! c) You are more or less frustated because you wasted a lot of time and some money to build a magnet motor that just won't work. A and B might go on and enjoy the fun, C however might want to read very attentive now ;) If you take some indicator sheet for magnetic fields, like these funny green ones, and play with moving magnets then you see a very interesting effect on the "screen". The otherwise static field lines change chape and sometimes even seem to disappear or shrink. With a small rotor assembly it almost looks like flashes when the magnets move past each other. This effect is often totally neglected and to be honest I overlooked it for a long time as well. Being able to see how the magnetic field changes gives the thing an whole new dimension so to speak. Creating a magnet with a complex shape is difficult to say the least. Only ferrite or ceramic ones can be used and you would cut of machine them according to your desired shape and with regards to the orginal center of the magnetic field. So most people revert to the classic way of shaping by adding magnets of various types, sizes and amounts. Modern neodymium magnets make this trial and error process easier as there are many sizes and strengths available. Add a detector shield of suitable size and you have hours of fun time ahead of you. But doing so in any rotary assembly is next to impossible. So what did Yildiz differently and what was missed so many times? Yildiz took it a step further and not only provided "shunts" to create very strong magnetic field from the generated electricity but also a second rotor. Since we all start small lets focus on the basics first. Remember the hook magnet and speaker or the copper pipe? Some examples for shape shifting your otherwise static magnetic fields: 1. A magnetic metal "connection" from one (low in the armature) pole to an opposing (high in the amature) pole with cause the field from the "high" pole to "bend" towards the connected magnet. 2. A magnet with an orientation of 90° to the last magnet is the sequence will severely influence the field of this last magnet! This goes for either orientations! 3. Adding a non-magnetic "shield" around a magnet, like a piece of copper pipe, will not affect the static field of the magnet. However it will severely alter the field of the enclosed magnet when another magnet passes it! It will also affect the overal field during the passing as the moving magnet will also induce a field in the copper by affecting the field of the enclosed magnet! Thickness and lenght of the shield influence the strength of these effects. 4. In a simple perendiv motor design the bar that creates the attraction for the spinning part is a magnet too. Either a long bar type or two small ones with an iron or nickel rod between them. There is no need for a piston or something that drives the bar up or out of the way ;) Just use the right magnet at the right spot on your rotor to repell the bar ;) Mount the ar with suitable springs and you suddenly can have multiple stages on your rotor instead of just the usual one! Don't forget the moving magnet on the opposing side of the segment in question though as otherwise you still will get stuck. (Hint: You can place a small but powerful magnet in the center of the opposing bar ;) Just make sure you limit the springs movement so the bar won't be pulled closer)

Ok, hold on now! Does a magnet motor actually work or not? I can only give hints and say the laws of physics as we know them apply to magnetmotors the same way as everything else. Unlimeted motion without supplying energy is not possible. Limited motion with adding or using energy however is still possible and real. The same is true for being able to machine, 3D print or otherwise manufacture at very tight tolerence and accuracy levels. This includes bearings or bearing systems with very little friction losses. Just check these floting and rotating magnet toys that look like a spindle. Only a tiny needle like pin makes contact with a glass surface - next to no friction loss. A proper and supposedly working magnet motor should provide more energy than what it uses - one way or the other. No law of physics lets us get around the fact that such a motor could only keep spinning if the produced power or motion energy is at least the same as what is required to make it move. Magnets lose their strenght over time, they are like a very slowly depleting battery. So, isn't it funny that all magnet motors so far that claimed to work also had the requirement to replace the magnets once the things fails to work or start? And if you leave a very strong neodymium magnet shielded from outside fields or magnetic stuff than your grandkids will still find a quite strong magnet. Do a little performance test with your new magnets, like how much force is required is required to lift them off a steel plate. Make the same test with the magnets once you played around extensively with them in your motor. Now take a spare magnet that was never used from the orginal batch and compare both against each other ;) If the motor would not use energy then why are the magnets depleted to a certain degree, realted to runtime and usage time? Wait a minute! Does that now mean it actually works? Lets just say energy is certainly used. We only know similar effects from electromagnetic systems. But did anyone ever really check how much actual energy is in magnetic field generated by a non electric magnet? Get a good sized N52 neodymium magnet and check how much force is required to pull it off a steel surface. Now try to get the smallest sized electromagnet capable of that force and check how much energy it consumes at the level that equals the pulling force of the N52 magnet ;) Makes no sense to even try to compare these you will say now. I just say energy is energy and we were formed to only think in certain ways and don't even try silly things like this ;) To keep the fun up let us imagine we would actually have a similar energy available than what our electro magnet would require. In reality more because we wouldn't have electrical or flux related losses in the metal around the coil. Or is the imagined reality, no clue ;) If true it would mean even a motor with very bad efficiency would be able to create huge amounts of torque. Well, torque is basically acceleration. Which would mean our motor would not just be happy to spin, it would speed up until the bearing fail or the thing is ripped apart. Imagine a dental drill of that size and weight suddenly falling apart at full speed... Every example of motors claimed to be working, that are not fakes, seem to be happy no matter what the load is. It the thing turns a generator than it would have to slow down a bit with the increased load but they don't. With no limited factors otherwise this makes them a fake. Even a perfect motor would have to react to load changes.... Don't we agree that the stronger the magnetic force or field in a conductor the stronger the resulting magnetic and opposing field of the conductor? We use the difference to either drive a motor or take out electricity... But if you take the "open" shielding of a magnet in a changing field than the influence of the shield on the overall field gets stronger with stronger field changes. And properly desinged and orientated they would actually double as a natural limiter for the rotation speed. Once the electrical energy in the shield becomes too strong it will be able to cancel out the field of the enclosed magnet...

If we assume a magnet motor is really possible and works with the intended output to keep it spinning or even take energy out: Then what would be possible downfalls that stop this thing happening in everyones garage? We can explore the stars but so far no one bothered to invent anything to visualise magnetic field in a 3 dimensional way other than by simulation. No realtime and true observation like this. The few working technologies that exist rely on sensors, interpretaion and filling in gaps. But imagine something like a detector shield as cloud! And then even better with selctive spacing to get a realtime view of where exactly the field lines go. All we can do is forget our teaching and try it out anyway ;) If by some mistake a magnet motor would really work right away, then chances are high the inventor would wonder why that thing takes off like mad and how to stop it. Unless well prepared it would certainly end in the destrution of the motor. But the inventor would know what to look for in the next prototype. The logical conclusion would be to the couple the energy taken to the speed while physically limittin the free load speed. The other one would be the design the electrical generator around the and within the motor. To even get close to this point you would have to spend endless days and nights working on finding a solution. The closer you get the more disappointment when the final model still fails to keep spinning for more than a few hours. Most people will then accept defeat and move on... Still not saying it actually works but if you made it to this point in time where it could be easier to move on and do other things:

Ever wondered what would happen if you "shield" a magnet with a coil? Of course nothing would happen as we know. But try this in some fixed assembly that allows you move another magnet through the field of the shielded one. Perferably witha force gauge or some option to read out the energy required to move it through the various stages of the field. See what happens if you short the coil or add a resistor to it ;) Now if this coild is able to produce electricity then the more we use the more the effects on the required force would change. What do you think would happen if you combine common coil relations of electric motors to a "coil shielded" magnet motor? Right, all these coils would interact with the magnetic fields of the coils they are connected to... And through that with the overall field surrounding the enclosed magnet..... I leave up to you to imagine how these interacting coils could provide "resistance" or "acceleration"/"surplus electricity"...

Like they say: You can only find out if you try ;) To keep up the positive thinking: A permanent magnet just sticks to any magnetic surface and does so with the same force. But the real energy loss in terms of getting weaker can almost be neglected. Any electromagnet capable of the same holding force woul require ongoing energy supplies to keep it up. It is using energy the same way the permanent magnet does! The difference is the permanent magnet is not seen as anything that would provide us with energy.... And if it can't provide energy other than passing through coils then why the heck does it keep sticking to the fridge year after year? It does require energy to keep this weight up doesn't it, even if you add a thin teflon disk and oil to reduce friction? ;) No magic, no "free energy" bogus, just plain physics viewed from a slightly different angle than what we learn in school ;) Have a good laugh and a good beer, then read it again and just consider some of the things here that are not mentioned in any literature about magnetism that we commonly use. Now I got you thinking, didn't I ? ;)

Discussions

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Downunder35m

7 months ago

Quite old in terms of the original video but it shows how complicated energy really is...


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Downunder35mliquidhandwash

Reply 7 months ago

It the same priciple that used on magnetic hinges.
There is a new type that "locks" the door or panel in a fixed position.
We had them on some equippment last year until they started to collect too much debris.
As a toy however this is quite neat!
Since you already made one:
Ever wondered what happens to this nice effect if you shield the small magnets? ;)
I mean a ferromagnetic ring over both sides of the small magnets.
Although I have to say it works best if the distance between the magnets is smaller then their diameter.
You would end up with a ring magnet ;)

And the principle of combining magnets with opposing poles is just one clue on how to make a magnetmotor working.
Find the other three and you got yourself a magnetmotor running :)

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liquidhandwashDownunder35m

Reply 7 months ago

You might want to try this as well, when I was a kid I discovered that you could reverse the polls on a bar magnet by warping a coil of wire around it and then connecting it to 12volts for a fraction of a second. Then change it back again by reversing the battery connections. It was an old fashion iron magnet I never tried it on a neodymium magnet. It is and interesting effect but thats as far as I got with it.

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Downunder35mliquidhandwash

Reply 7 months ago

That actually still works on the neodymium ones.
Partially that is.
If you heat them up the loose it, but if placed hot between two other strong magnets they get magnetized again.

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Downunder35m

7 months ago

Lets take a look on where some of the old ideas for magnetmotors came from.
Some of the very eary models that claimed to actually work are now over 100 years old.
But none of them ever made into any real world application and even those who created them did not really use them.
You can look most of them up through Google.
I call them just ideas of a maybe working principle as there is not enough info out there to actually replicate them.
The real breakthrough so to say started between 1935 and 1960.
During that time a surprisingly huge amount of people started to experiment with magnets.
One outcome of this experimenting was the "discovery" of the Halbach Array.
Closely related to this was the discovery of how to make a magnetron work.
The idea of manipulating magnetic fields from permanent magnets was born.
The true origin story of the George Green motor is somehow funny as in most references it always comes back to aliens or the famous Area 51.
Here is one of the oldest videos I could find about this type of "motor":

Forget about the alien story behind it and just consider the "toy" he created - this toy can found endless amounts of times throughout the internet as a "free energy" device.
But unlike in most modern videos and demonstrations there is a tiny difference.
A gap and placements of the magnets in the ring.
So far no one dared to actually utilise the "alien technology" for anything meaningful.
And those who tried it and experimented with it came to the conclusion that it does not work and just a thing of motion.
To be precise: How you interact with the spinning toy by moving the modified ring magnet around.
Only if you keep moving then it is possible to keep the toy spinning, conclusion: there is no such thing as free energy.
We get to hear this every time for some reason or another.
What we never get however is the truth behind these "fake" toys.
A motor or anything else that moves means for us it is a fixed and static thing.
No one would dare to create a motor that wobbles, well, some did with combustion engines using ball mechanisms, different story though.
In reality this toy is actually an inbalanced system.
It only works if it is never in any fixed alignment.
Look up "working" mechanical perpetual motion devices and you come across a pedulum thing with a rolling steel ball.
The weight of the ball changes the center of gravity and the pendulum transfers this to a different angle for the track of the ball.
Even if it would not work forever it shows how energy can be kept in use without loosing too much of it.

Now if this spinning toy is nothing more than an attempt to show what might be possible, then how would the real machine look like?
For any wheel, motor or whatever needs to spin we prefer total balance.
There are two main inbalances we fight.
a) The center of gravity is not in the same place as the axle, shaft, bearing...
b) The center of gravity is outside the middle of the rotating part, like up or down along the axle.
The first is usually really bad and the mainreason we balance the wheels on our cars.
The second however is what can cause a "wobble" along the axis at very low speeds.
Just imagine a simple spinning toy: The center of gravity in the rotating mass is above the point of contact.
Once it slows down too much it is unstable and falls over.
The wobble effect that happens when it slows down is what we need ;)
You see, this wobble is always present but with higher RPM the magnitude or phase angle is reduced.
The force acting is always 90° off the direction it actually wants to fall.
Can be checked very nice by spinning a bicycle wheen very fast while holding at the axle - try to overcome the gyroscopic effect and turn it in the direction you would like ;)

To create a simple an inblance motor based on this toy we would need two magnet rings that are 180° out of phase to each other - meaning the gap...
Our spinning toy would then not be glued onto a ball either.
However the axle we need to use needs to be able to wobble in a specific way.
There are many ways to accomplish this but I will only use the most basic approach here:
The bearing used are not really mounted.
Instead they sit in a hloder that acts like a slider.
Teflon works well here.
The bearing mount is desinged so that there is an even gap all around the actual bearing.
If said mount is then also shaped like a very flat bowl you got it right.
With this configuration we are limited to a vertical rotor configuration only but more complex ounts would allow and position.
Both magnet rings must then be placed right on the center of the axle and at the correct distance.
Ideally with the use of some shielding to reduce the distance to get the rotor in both dead zones of the rings.
These zones are what I discribed in another reply as the null-field.
If the rotor is now aligned so that it is never fully in the null-field it will spin.
However it might be required to give it a push start so the wobble we actually want is in phase with the rotation.

Why does it need to wobble if so many other systems claim to work with fully fixed mechanisms?
If I follow the bread crumbs correctly to the true origins of this "toy" then the wobble does not really matter at all.
A very old but still authentic photo shows that a coil assembly, without a core in the coils, is between the rotor and the magnet rings.
Seems to be two sets of flat coils with another one similar shaped like on our old anlogue TV's but to enclose the two other coils and the rotor part.
Could not make out any of the wiring in the phot but it seems to be at least 12 different wires going out of the coil assembly.
Some of the wires went to coils in the mounts for the magnet rings, creating an opposing wobble to the rotor.
It was claimed that the actual frame holding it all together and allowing it to be mounted anywhere would not have any measurable vibrations anywhere.
The striking thing in said photo is level of accuracy on the parts for the time period.

Creating similar on a hobby level is no problem these days, even wood and a brain plus some basic tools will do.
Two magnet rings, or just one for starters, some wobbling axle and a ring magnet - how hard can it be?
Quite hard if don't examine all the fake informations out there and compare what seems to be the truth.
The whole vortex theory behind it is inconclusive to say the best.
It would have to assume that the magnets actually create a moving flux of electrons like in an electromagnet.
But then again, there is no change or movement in a DC powered electromagnet - it just acts like a permanent magnet.
In reality the best and easiest approch is to see the fields as even forces of pressure.
If you spin a plate on a table then you can keep it spinning with your finger and good timing.
But doing so by just using a downward force on the plate without some pushing sideways make this quite hard as the timing needs to be perfect.
Too much and you create a much higher inbalance and only a massive wobble with no increase in speed.
Too little or too early/late and you can not provide enough energy to keep the spin up.
If the spinning ring magnet is right at the point where the rings of magnets start to cancel each other out (in terms of the field lines diverting) then only very little wobble is required.
That means the way the bearing mounts operate must be so that it works best at the intended wobble frequency in the dead zone.
Sadly that also means that quite some speed is required to reach a sustainable point.
And exactly that problem is (partially) addressed by the gap in the magnet rings.
In the modern fake form a ring magnet like from a magnetron is used.
But these have the poles facing inwards and outwards of the flat sides.
In terms of field lines this creates a huge dome with a dead center.
Our gapped magnet ring however has the field going toward the center of the circle!
In return we get a very flat field with a cancellation area in the center, there we get a maximum flux.
The gap causes another inbalance in the system.
There will be a weaker zone towards the center and overall the magnetic center is no longer aligned with the ring center.
Before you can construct anything you need to find where exactly the dead zone starts first.
Diameter of the ring affects this as much as the strenght of the magnets and how much of a gap is between the single magnets.
A shielding can help here quite a lot.
With a very small magnet you can then "feel" where it repells or where it is drawn towards the ring.
If you start from a distance you will notice the "hole" in the center.
This hole will change diameter depending on the distance you have the test magnet at.
The key is now that the ring manget used for the rotor will fit inside this dead zone hole while just touching the point where it would get attracted.
Means your ring magnet needs a certain diameter to work at all.
With both magnet rings in the right distance you will have an almost spherical dead zone with the rotor right in the center.
Only in this configuration you get enough magnetic flux to get any meanful movement out of the system.
It is not about what materials you use or how well you can machine all the parts!
It is about knowing the right dimensions based on the design you used!
Ring magnet too large in diameter and you will operate in much weaker fields as you need a much larger distance between the two rings.
Ring magnet too small or the magnet rings too big and it will sit freely in the dead zone without being affected by the field changes at all.

Some "physics" behind all this:
The wobble that happens is only in two dimensions and if properly inbalanced results in a sine wave where the center of the axle always follows the same path if the speed is fixed.
With the gap in the rings or what some refer to as the missing magnet, we get a chance of high interference.
The fields of rotor and rings affect each other and this also happens in a sine wave fashion.
And as always any good school teacher would tell you know I am just producing a lot of horse crap here.
The forces are still all static and with that it will never spin!
Then why would I bother to write it anyway? ;)
Modern times convinced us to only think in two dimensions, and always to try this.
And an awful lot of people simply forget about the gyroscopic effect here.
A force applied on a gyroscop wheel is always direct with the spin into a different direction.
Another thing is that most people see magnetic fields as a static thing.
What they seem to forget is that any passing magnets will affect the shape of their surrounding field!
This impossible machine, if constructed properly, will combine the gyroscopic effect with the changes in the magnetic fields.
Means that always at the right moment your finger will push the plate down to keep it spinning!

Some explanations on all the fakes out there:
The most obvious fake you can find uses magnet rings where you have up to 8 different poles created.
So instead of just one you get a big mix up.
To simplify: If you take the plate as my example then it is simply impossible to apply more than one force without upsetting the system.
As said before it matters WHEN the force is applied.
Another favourite seems to be the magnetron magnet instead of the manual configuration.
It works somewhat if done with a ball and by hand but you never get any proper speed.
Mostly you get something that would have caused it to spin if you give it a manual sideways push at the precisely right moment.
The field from the magnetron magnet simply is not good enough to create the right shape.
Only with a massive wobble by your hand you can keep it for a short while.
Enclosed system...
Everything you can not fully see is a potential area for faking it.
Be it music to hide the compressor noise, old motors salvaged to act as a bearing or just some rotating magnets hiding under the table.
Editing a video with a fixed cam position is easy these days.
If you think it might be a fake then it certainly is one.
Someone bragging about having it working on Youtube would either show up as a hero in worldwide media or the video would disappear quicker then anyone could watch it.
And well, if it come only with paid instructions and uses clickbait to generate extra money you should know better anyways.
Patent offers...
This one I really love because it is oldest scam there is and it still creates a lot of millionaires.
Most people can't make any use of a patent because it is designed to make a replication without the right knowledge or a working model impossible.
The clue is now to provide instructions to fill the gaps and to create a working machine.
And since there are no free downloads for this available no matter how hard you look it must be true.
Thing is all you get for money is already out on the web for free.
And providing a patent copy for money is a scam already.
No matter if it is included in something else or not.
Next thing is that all is outdated as current patents would cause a violation take down quickly.
It would take you days to create the first working model from the supplied information and all you get is close but never close enough.

Why would even a real magnetmotor never really work?
You can rest assured that it would be impossible to remove all traces of inventors and their inventions in todays times.
At least not if the inventor has a family and some good friends plus a job.
Still we would certainly not only hear about them but also hear from people how went there to see and check the machine.
Imagine the impact a magnetmotor would have on the world!
Unlimited electricity and transport for everyone and for free.
Great until you check who the big loosers would be.
Now ask yourself:
How much money would it take to make you forget all you created and hand over everything?
How much to make you friends and family state it was all hoax for fun?
No matter what sum you imagine it will be considered peanuts by the buyer...
It is no longer about making the impossible machines possible.
It is only about keeping the balance.
Still a nice thing to tinker with :)

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Downunder35m

7 months ago

I am currently working on simplifying a very old design.
The original uses a lot of brass, push rods and springs.
Has a patent, is claimed to work but requires constant care and oiling.
And of course the output is barely enough to keep it running let alone to power some tiny generator.
I am hoping to eliminate the moving parts for the magnets as well as the brass by using a 3D printed model and some modifications.
Should be possible to reduce the magnet count down to under 200 as well.

While experimenting with a small version that was just meant to check alignments I noticed a very strage effect and Liquidhandwash posted a nice toy that comes close to this effect.
In the right combination and using the correct distances you can create what I call a null-field.
Right at that point of null the magnetic field lines cancel each other out.
But unlike soundwaves this happens by diverting the field lines.
There is no real use for this that I found so far unless you could create a coil that fits in this null-field.
Then and in a rotating assembly you would not get two polarity changes in the coil when the magnets go past each other but four.
And like in modern ignition coils the magnetic pulse created would be much stronger because the field from the magnets is overcome and "reversed" in that area twice.
In something like the impossible magnetmotor however the effect can be utilised to overcome the binding forces that otherwise would stop the motor.
The momentum of the rotor pushes past the first binding point but them the resersal of the magnetic field in that area will push the rotor out by cancelling the binding moment.
Accurate timing and distance is the key, plus of coure the right amount of mass in the rotor.
Too much and it won't have enough force to accelerate enough, too little and the binding force will get it stuck.

So how would one go these days if he wanted to build a magnetmotor?
Starting linear is always good but also brings the problem of transfering it accurately into a round model.
Starting with a flat ring is a good compromise.
Be it a turntable or a model railway track loop...
Creating something that pulls the moving part in is easy, keeping it moving a bit harder.
Always keep in mind that the final thing has no start and no end!
Most people use just 3 repetitions in their assembly.
Might work if you have a high speed camera and analyse the frames to detect where and when things slow down - but it is very time consuming.
5 to 6 repetitions however should show you an ongoing acceleration until the moving part shoots out of the end.
If works sometimes or when starting from some specific point then you are still fighting higher binding forces than what the system can overcome.
If in doubt experiment with some added weight ;)
Whatever idea you come up with:
1. It won't work with just plain magnets in a row or similar - you always need a modified start and end that matches.
2. You will need to combine magnets in weird combinations or machine your own shapes from ferrite block magnets.
3. If you can create linear motion from various starting points in a segment then consider what you do where to reduce the binding effect.
Hint: Shielding and shaping the magnetic fields ;)
4. Only consider additional magnets in other places than where it binds as a last resort!
Shaping the magnetic fields is far mor effective and minimises the amount of magnets required.
5. If you are linear: Ever considered a ramp for your moving part? ;)
Like an arch bridge you can overcome binding forces if the momentum is high enough and the "bridge" increases the distance where it binds most.
The toy video posted can give you vital hints here!

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Downunder35m

7 months ago

I had a nice discussion and experimenting time today with a good friend of mine.
Unlike me he made all the up to a degree and does real studies on things for money now.
He stated that I can not take a bunch of magnets and create a new one without an weak spots between them.

His showoff was to join about 10 disk magnets to a cylindrical magnet.
Like that there is the north and south pole at the ends and the rest acts like a single magnet.
Although on the field viewing sheet you could see where the magnets touched there was no difference in feel to a similar cyclindrical magnet from one piece.
The he used some layers of carboard to seperate them with even spacing.
As expected you could really feel where one magnet was and where a gap was.
He was happy to have made a point and that his theory as correct as always.

Then I placed the magnets in identical orientation with on pole onto a flat mild steel bar.
Two strips.
One with the magnets as close to each other as possible, then with a spacing similar to the diameter of the disk magnets.
In either case there was no noticable "gap" to feel and only one the viewing film was really close to the magnets it revealed the different poles, above that threshold and it appears as one field.
He went silent for about 15 minutes, tried all sorts of things and kept shaking his head.
"Can I take those home and do some proper checks?"

Well that was last Sunday and so far I have not hear back from to explain to me where the gaps disappeared to LOL

None
Downunder35m

7 months ago

Take a look at all these magnetmotor videos out there on Youtube.
I really love the fake one with the PC fan LOL
Then there are the many videos showing 3 rows of magnets on rotor and stator, the later to be closed with hinges...
At least for those some folks are honest and admit failure...

So what is actually causing these failures if the concept was not to create a fake?
Take a normal asyncronous motor as one example.
The rotor appears to be slotted or angled but if not straight.
This helps to overcome certain issues but also allows the rotor to slip without loosing too much momentum.
There is something I like to call "the honest guy test".
Here you can see how the rotor spins with and without the stator.
Funny thing on an almost working model is how it reacts.
You see, when started slow in both cases the rotor won't spin long but noticable longer without the stator.
And when started at a quite high speed it is the other way around.
Here the thing suddenly spins much longer with the stator than without it.

As mentioned in the topic already, we have binding forces between the magnets.
Even if you have fully opposing poles meeting there will be a dead zone.
In this dead zone the magnet will actually attract ;)
This means you are fighting two fundamental problems that seem to confirm the laws of physics still apply.
Overall the forces will actually nullify to nothing.
Taking for granted what we know about energy and momentum a true magnetmotor would be able to start by itself from any position.
Checking some claimed to be working models there is one thing they all have in common:
Or better two, they need a push to start or they lock in a fixed position when stopped!
Those really sceptic people now say it is not a perpetuum mobile - and of course they are right!
However, if you widen the definition only slightly then even with a push start a working magnet motor provides more energy than what was required to start it - and it keeps running.
The one thing you never really see in carefully edited videos or during presentations is how the magnets are aligned, enclosed and how other matals are used in the stator or rotor assembly!
For most the few visible parts seem to be for stabilityor to keep it all together.
Lets talk about binding, dead zones and "potting mixes"...

If you take a coil and move a magnet past it then some electricity will be generated.
Same if you drop a magnet through a coil or pipe.
But honestly: Did you ever consider how this magnetic field or electricity would change the magnetic flux?
In a pipe you end up with opposing magnetic fields, thats what is slowing the magnet down.
If you do it the other way around and use a potted magnet then the effect is quite different if a magnet passes it!
Like in a LC circuit we get a dimishing impulse.
The potting affects the magnet, the magnet affects the currents in the potting.
The passing magnet will now create a strong impulse when passing over the dead zone.
And in return this impulse severaly lowers the magnetic field strenght of the potted magnet.
Plus: The magnetic field of the pot is of the opposite to the magnet!
The overall pushing and pulling forces will be almost the same but the binding forces drastically reduced.
From a certain speed up the binding forces are lower than the forces moving the rotor...
And does it still fail to work, or if done good stops after a while instead of getting faster or keeping the speed?

Alignement and repetition...
Three rotors and stators are there for a reason!
A single system always has binding forces stopping the movement sooner or later.
Just not enough energy to overcome friction and all the stuff as well.
To eliminate this we often see that the magnets or the rotors are aligned similar to a asyncronous rotor.
However that is not entirely correct, maybe on purpose, who knows..
What you really want is to make sure that while one rotor is in the position where the binding forces would stop it, the other two are at positions providing a comined "trust" that is slightly higher.
I give you a free hint here: This will never work with the same amount of magnets on stator and rotor! ;)
There is a natural ratio you need to stick to.
That way you have single binding points around the perimater instead of all of them binding at the same time ;)
Ok, got it but it still slows down and stops after a while :(

Well, it has to because you still have a fully static system.
Unless your potting and additional shielding is next to perfect you still have more losses than gain.
But if the rotor now spins much longer with the stator around then try to get a faster starting speed ;)
Static is not always best!
If you are good enough then it might work for you but in 99% of cases it won't.
Right now we use the potting to affect the potted magnet.
But we could use coils instead...
To keep the example quite simple imagine a rotor with 5 magnets and a stator with 7.
Calculating two unknow variables is quite easy possible if you paid attention in school.
Doing it with three is slightly harder but works too.
What you want is to create a follow up impulse.
What is produced by a coil right then the magnet passes goes into another coil to pull the magnet closer and to overcome the replusive forces a bit better.
Once you get your tables calculated you realise 5 and 7 won't really work with the alignment all the time.
You need a number of coiled stator magnets that actually allow you create the right pattern through the coil connections.
All coils need to be used and always connected so the the strongest coil feeds into a weak one to pull a magnet closer.
Remember these drawing toys to make nice looking spirals on paper? - they can give you clues here ;)
Instead of wasting energy through heat alone we now actually use the magnetic impulses and the resulting electricity to ADD to the system.
A feromagnetic ring on top of the coil can be used to manipulate the magnetic field enev further without compromising the impulse too much!

One thing I so far fail to find on Youtube is to use two cylindrical magnets mounted in non-magnetic bearings.
The ones you might see don't use the bearings at the ends of the magnet but instead let them rotate from pole to pole like a motor.
Do a little test for me ;)
Place two magnets with their pole onto a non magnetic bearing of your choice - very low friction please!
Now bring them close together so you feel they either pull or push on each other.
Fix them in a position that won't let them snap together or that provides a good push.
-Now start to spin one magnet and watch what the other one does! ;)
If we see magnetic field lines like teeth on a gear the other magnet will start to sping as well.
See them as a general force and there will be no interaction.
Assume it would spin:
It would mean we have usable forces around a magnet that spins on its pole axis.
And if it does not spin then why do we speak of magnetic field lines instead of a magnetic field sphere? ;)
Easy to do, so figure it out and explain your findings if you can ;)