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K'nex Innovators Contest - Information Answered

Alright, so Oblivitus and I are trying to kickstart the community back up. We have three planned ways to do it so far. First, we're making a wiki of guides to all the different parts of K'nex weapon building to try and aid newbs. Secondly, we're gonna go on a mass advertising campaign across other websites and wherever possible to encourage new people to try K'nexing. Finally, we'll be holding a series of challenges in a grand contest to encourage innovation. The format for these will be simple: we'll present you a concept, you all go out and try to make the best build of that concept possible. The idea here is that not only will we try to innovate, but we'll try to perfect one concept at a time instead of just dabbing here and there, sweeping promising, yet underdeveloped concepts under the rug. We'll mix up the challenges as need be, such as allowing teams for more complicated builds, perhaps extending time limits, etc. Else, we're hoping to keep pumping out the challenges at a steady rate and see who can win the most. Perhaps we'll eventually have one final grand challenge with a bigger prize.

So I'm simply curious who we all got here so far that'll participate. Just post with what you think the time limit should be for each challenge. Again, the idea is to allow enough time to perfect concepts but be steadily producing these concepts. So, do you think one week, for example, would be adequate? We'll adjust time limits as need be, but I figured we'd set a default so that you know what to expect.

Also, if you would like to suggest any concepts, I'll add them to a nominations list. You can nominate as many as you want. For each challenge, you'll be allowed one vote for those on the nomination list and then we'll tackle the concept with the most votes for the next challenge.

Nominations:
-Nada, suggest something, anything, though I'd request some thought and nothing impossible sounding.

By the way, if any veterans would like to help edit the Wiki, join at wikispaces.com and send me your username there. I'll add you to the members list so you can edit articles. I require only those who can create quality, objective pages. Grammar should be near perfect and there should be absolutely no opinions.

Discussions

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TheDunkis

6 years ago

Alright, sorry, with school, I figured I'd just wait to start this up. It's summer for most of us now, though, so I'm gonna try getting these started. My rules thus far:
-I with the help of other judges (at the moment, undefined, though probably Obl and maybe someone else) will pick a concept.
-You will have one week (unless stated otherwise) to complete and demonstrate a weapon utilizing our chosen concept.
-I will accept incomplete projects as long as you demonstrate how it would've worked or why it failed. The idea is we can expand on these concepts. Perhaps I'll have a second or third round of the same challenge if I feel it needs more work.
-The judges will grade each entry for points (so even if you don't win, you still get points for trying).
-With your entry, submit an idea for a concept, or a vote for a concept you've already seen suggested. The most popular or most interesting concept will be picked to be done next.

I'll add things to spin it up here and there just for fun. We'll see who can collect the most points. I'll message Obl to see if he still wants to help judge and see what the first concept should be. After that, I'll get started. It'll probably be something easy just to get people to interested. We'll hopefully gather more members as we go.

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Blackbird17

6 years ago

I wish I could but i'm caved in with school sorry D:

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Sharir1701

6 years ago

any progress yet? if you're gonna come out saying "i'm gonna do this and that" and you aren't gonna immediately start doing it, chances are you won't. get it going. it's hard to start, but once you do, everything goes much quicker than you should think.

don't take this the wrong way... i'm not trying to be harsh or anything, simply trying to provoke a revolution in knex weaponry, and i agree that this is a great starting point, but if it won't happen, then this whole topic of a waste of everyone's time. if you need any help, you know where to find me...

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Sharir1701TheDunkis

Reply 6 years ago

.com? (or something of the sort) or .wiki, .webs etc...?

excellent.

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TheDunkisSharir1701

Reply 6 years ago

Alright, well I'll set something up when I get a concept idea. I forget why I didn't start, I didn't have anything to start with. I'll come up with something myself if I don't see anything soon.

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Sharir1701TheDunkis

Reply 6 years ago

before going in to more complicated (for beginners) concepts and even into anything regarding the actual designs and theory, first set up a site; then make the wiki of parts, like you said; the start introducing the different types of mechanisms, barrels, pins, triggers, magazines etc... what i'm basically saying is that if you don't start with the long yet important labor, you never will. if you need help, i can do it, and kinetic and a few others will as well, i believe.

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TheDunkisSharir1701

Reply 6 years ago

The contest is what I'm worried about at the moment. The guides are in the hands of Obl and whoever else he gathers to help. We had a Wiki going actually, I don't know what his thoughts on continuing it are. But we will for sure continue constructing the guides here on ibles.

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Sharir1701TheDunkis

Reply 6 years ago

A. i don't think ob. has put much effort into the wiki, because he is deep in hard work over the SA 3252 v9, but i don't know. anyway, if there is something, could you give me a link?

B. about the contest, i'm sorry, i read the whole topic again and didn't quite get what you were looking for. what's the contest? what are the rules? how should i enter? with what must i enter? etc... if what you're saying is that you're waiting for a contest to "happen" before you start on the wiki, and you're waiting for an idea for the contest before you start it, i think you and me both know that that's not going anywhere anytime soon. if you are looking for an idea for the contest, here's one: make a true bolt action. i don't know, maybe there is a true bolt action somewhere on the site that i missed, but i never saw a true bolt action gun that fires, let alone with any performances (good ones, that is). here's another one: find a new way to fire a round (not a pin, slingshot, or hammer of any sort). you know? i'm just saying... i would want nothing more than for innovation in the community to run faster, and i think that this not-doing-anything state will keep the current situation.

C. another thing you might want to do is set a certain "restriction" for posting guns. what i mean is saying like - NO POSTING F***ING BLOCK TRIGGER GUNS (yes, some people still do), don't post a generic gun with no new features in it unless it's a replica or a demonstration of something new (if you want to get other people's opinions about your generic gun, post it as a topic, not an 'ible), etc...

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Knex.X

6 years ago

Hurray knex guns aren't dead :)
maybe i'll participate in one of those contests (oh wait I have school too)
Maybe remove the grammar thing? I'm Dutch and you can't say that the grammar has to be almost perfect since many people here aren't English

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Kinetic

6 years ago

Count me in! I'm glad to see you and Oblivitus taking some initiative.

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The Jamalam

6 years ago

Literally nothing has happened in the past few months. I left for a while, but I'd like to help. I'll message you my username when I get round to it.

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The JamalamThe Jamalam

Reply 6 years ago

I'd also enjoy applying some physics to K'Nex firearms, so that we could figure out the most efficient design possible. Momentum would be central, (ie. change in momentum and p=MV), and F=MA would probably play some part as well. We could use momentum, mass, distance, time and force to work out the best rubber bands as well. Just some ideas.

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TheDunkisThe Jamalam

Reply 6 years ago

We already have the basics figured out. Don't hurt the minds of little ones with unnecessary big people talk. There are really only a few things people need to remember, mainly that more acceleration distance = more range. Faster, lighter firing pins work better than slower, heavier firing pins even though momentum would say otherwise. Why? Because when you hit a piece of ammo, you're literally bringing it up to speed with pin. You're only transferring enough energy to make the ammo go faster than the pin, the rest is lost inside the gun and you.

Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if you could utilize this wasted energy in some way. Like, perhaps make a "recoil" operated bullet chambering system? The pin would hit the back of the gun connected to the bolt pin and the sudden hit would transfer a bullet from the magazine into the barrel. This would make bullet chambering weapons more useful if you didn't need to manually operate the bolt pin through a bolt handle or pump.

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The JamalamTheDunkis

Reply 6 years ago

With real firearms, the energy to re-cock the pin comes from the chemical energy within the gunpowder (or equivalent) inside the shell. With K'nex, this energy is not present and the energy transfer is elastic (potential)>kinetic. The energy will of course be transferred to wasted energy. In order to use the wasted energy constructively, either additional energy is required to reload and re-cock, or the energy would be used somewhere else. Each round could include a shell with enough stored energy (with rubberbands or springs) to complete a task, but this would of course be hard work. What we have now works fairly well and the main concern is minimising wasted energy rather than using it. There are two schools of thought. What would you rather have: a gun that fires efficiently with minimal recoil, or a gun that fires semi-efficiently with a slightly higher rate of fire?

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jollexThe Jamalam

Reply 6 years ago

Lol, someone took their first physics class.

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TheDunkisThe Jamalam

Reply 6 years ago

I never cared for the British education system since I heard how it grouped your ages together. Essentially, it separates the maturing kids from the matured kids and instead keeps them with the younger kids. Ages 11 to 15-16? Horrible combination. Thus, I noticed A LOT of teens over there act younger than what they really are, but then once you reach 16, you think you're a fully mature adult suddenly. Not meaning to generalize, that just seems like the trend. And then I don't get your college system. Essentially it's like two years of high school here except optional (for now).

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The JamalamTheDunkis

Reply 6 years ago

College is basically for people that don't or can't stay in the same institution that they took their GCSEs in (years 10-11). They take A levels, which is the next level before degree level. We don't do pre-school, just primary, secondary and tertiary education levels.

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The Jamalamjollex

Reply 6 years ago

The way the British education system is geared is stupid. We aren't actually taught about momentum until year 11 (that's 16 year olds) and conservation of energy is only explained to those who don't understand it in year 10 (15 year olds). They also seem to think that doing Foundation Triple Science papers (getting a maximum of three C grades) is better than doing Higher Double Science papers (max of 2 A* grades).

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TheDunkisThe Jamalam

Reply 6 years ago

I already explained why there's wasted energy, bud. You can't minimize wasted energy without making a smaller pin. This is why slingshots are best for range. The energy is being directly transferred into the ammo with little interference. However, pins are larger than the ammo, thus you can never transfer all of the energy in a pin into the ammo. A large object can absorb all of the energy of a smaller object because it takes more energy to make it move the same speed, thus the smaller object will always remain in contact with the larger object until all energy is transferred. However, with a smaller object being hit by a larger object, it takes less energy to make the smaller object move at the same speed. As soon as enough energy is transferred to make it move at a slightly higher speed, they fall out of contact, and thus the rest of the pin energy is wasted. You can only slim down a pin so much.

So have we established now that there's no avoiding this wasted energy? OK, good, so let's use this energy in other ways so it's not entirely wasted. I'm gonna try making it chamber a round. I decided I'll try a full weapon though I'll probably run out of pieces trying to make the stock. It's just the mechanism that matters, though, someone else can fill in the stock for me. So far it seems to be turning out well. I'll keep you up to date.

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tytiger33TheDunkis

Reply 6 years ago

I really like that idea! If you make it make sure to post it.

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TheDunkistytiger33

Reply 6 years ago

Yeah, I really want to make it but I know I won't have the pieces to actually make a gun. 'tis a shame, I always wanted to make a bolt action gun but never could. I also want to use my BAW magazine for one and know sort of how I could, but it'd be a little annoying. Overall, if I could figure it out, it'd probably be a well-received weapon. But I'll settle for demonstrating the concept and letting someone else make the weapon. Perhaps I could collaborate with someone.

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tytiger33TheDunkis

Reply 6 years ago

Well not me. The best gun I came up with hasn't had anyone try to make the concept work. It's one of my forum topics if you want to see it.

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didexotytiger33

Reply 6 years ago

I have an idea for a gun called the "Slamfire"

Basicly,it would be kinda like a shot gun. When you pull back the pump,it would pull back the pin. then, when you push the pump forward it would trigger a lever system which would lift up the trigger mech.

I already have a prototype worked out if you would like to see it Dunkis.

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DJ Radiodidexo

Reply 6 years ago

You're a few months late bud.

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TheDunkisDJ Radio

Reply 6 years ago

You're a little redundant, bud. And he's actually a couple years late. I remember dsman making one that was posted on KA.

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TheDunkisdidexo

Reply 6 years ago

Sorry, bud, but that concept has long since been done.

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Sharir1701

6 years ago

i don't know if you could consider me a veteran, but i know my way around with knex and have made some pretty radical guns. if i can help, i would love to. by the way, to get more people to know about this, post an 'ible about this and you'd get a lot more recognition for this idea. also, i think the idea is great ! encourage beginners to try and learn faster... kinda like a school for knex. you gonna post some reviews and "site seeing" 'ibles for the newbies that are unfamiliar with the good guns out here?

good luck, anyway !

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GrandeSwag

6 years ago

"First, we're making a wiki of guides to all the different parts of K'nex weapon building to try and aid newbs."

You mean like this? http://knexinnovation.net/showthread.php?1010-Guide-to-Performance-Knex-Guns

:/

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TheDunkisGrandeSwag

Reply 6 years ago

Not quite, actually. That told what and somewhat why, but not how. I sort of changed my plans. The Wiki will simply be like any other wiki; it'll provide information on weapons. However, then we'll construct some detailed ible guides on how to actually design a weapon. For example, the KI guide says "you need to put a trigger far back" while we'll say "this is how you can build a trigger for this type of barrel" etc. You could say that somewhat we'll be giving them parts that they can customize to make their own weapon with.

The KI guide is just fine and helps builders who have at least a little experience. But we're trying to get complete newbs with no weapon building experience, try to move them past tube and stick block trigger guns right away.

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jollexTheDunkis

Reply 6 years ago

What you're going to get with that though is exactly what we got with Trainman's guide to ball machine elements. People are going to take the exact parts that you show them and make them into a gun and all we'll get are variations of how the parts are put together. No innovation.

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DJ Radiojollex

Reply 6 years ago

As if that doesn't happen a bunch of times already? It's better than the repeats of tube and stick guns I guess.

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TheDunkisjollex

Reply 6 years ago

*sigh* You guys aren't quite getting it. All we're trying to do here is fast track a newb's progress instead of throwing him out into the wild. Otherwise typically what they'll do is build a tube and stick gun, realize it sucks, ask what they should build, go build a TR, and then stick with that anyways. Yes, I get what will happen will probably be some modular weapon variations, but then the idea will be to encourage the newb to add his own parts, modify existing ones, and then eventually just develop his own gun. A newb isn't going to be making any revolutionary concept right off the bat, we're just trying to give them a quick start so that they may eventually become an innovative builder.