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New immigration law of Arizona Answered

So lately there have been many reports on the news about the new immigration law in Arizona. I do not agree with the new law, and I would like to know what the Instructables community thinks about this new law. 

Here are a few links to what it says-
www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
www.keytlaw.com/blog/2010/04/anti-illegal-immigration-law-part-1/


Discussions

I wish the debate would focus on what really matters: keeping the law. The law allows for legal immigration. No one will have a problem with legal immigrants coming into the U.S. The law is Arizona's attempt at that. The Federal government has failed to do their job and has forced the States to take these measures. As an attorney who has looked at these laws, it is especially frustrating to see the Federal government fail to enforce the existing laws we have.

flyin2drive
Nevada Annulment

0
user
CrLz

7 years ago

My take is Arizona is trying to stimulate immigration debate / reform.

I'm surprised Arizona has the cojones to push this into the national forum, it's not like they are California. Naively, I would have expected Texas to start this.

The Village Voice in NYC recently published "Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capital" , which was taken from a series of articles in Phoenix Arizona's newspaper.  Horrifying.

Can't say whether the original articles are pro-bill ~propaganda, but the Voice publication illustrates the ugly reality of danger fellow human people face.

Solutions?  Meaningful discussion is an important start.

Village Voice.jpg

.  What about the law do you not like. The part where they arrest ppl who are here illegally?
.  Any links to the text of the law (instead of some talking head's opinion about what it says)?

The part where the police are specifically empowered to stop and arrest anyone they think might possibly be here illegally.  No probable cause, just what color the person's skin is, what language their speaking, etc.

.  Precisely where does it say "No probable cause"?
.  I see "stop, detention or arrest." I see "where reasonable suspicion exists." But no "without probable cause."

So, how can you develop a "reasonable suspicion" from just looking at somebody?




Well... in Arizona, when you see a person with a large van full of Mexican people with a Mexico license plate, A cop's first thought is if they are legal or not. Why do people see that as racism?

Location has nothing to do with it. What is actually happening is that the officer is looking at somebody and assuming that they are committing a crime based purely on the observation that they look like somebody from another country.

That is exactly the same as not sending aid to the flood victims of Pakistan on the grounds that "Pakistanis support Al Qaeda".

Yes. i undderstand what you mean, but it is police officers job, they are not being racist, they just do there job to protect the rest of us. Please understand this, earlier in 2010 a police officer was shot by an illegal imigrant. Later, 2 more were killed. And then, A man At his ranch was killed.

Just last week an obese woman killed her two children! We should sterilize all fat ladies, because obviously they're all baby killers.

You really have no concept of just how absurd, let alone ignornantly hateful, your argument is, do you?

I'm not implying that all imigrants are illlegal. I'm saying that some are ILEGAL and that some are a threat.

And you are saying (not implying, saying) is that you can tell that someone is illegal by looking at the color of their skin, or their license plate. I can tell just by looking at your white face that you're an ignorant bigot. I don't have to know anything about you or your personal history or views. Now do you get the point?

No i'm not saying that. ( i'm black by the way)

Good to know. And even more interesting that there was no possible way that I could know that! To me, "you" look just like a yellow robot. Notice that I (apparently, for rhetorical effect) made assumptions about both the color of your skin, and your attitude toward other people, with no actual knowledge of you at all. Making those assumptions, with no knoweldge, is racism. It doesn't matter what color you are, you can still be a racist.

I understand that it is racist to do that and i would never make assumptions just by the color a persons skin.

Thank you for clarifying your original comment. I appreciate that you recognize the dangers of racism, especially institutionalized racism.

All I want to know now are your views on the law.

The law as amended is formally legal and constitutional (in my opinion), as it codifies at the state level what is already federal law.

The legislative record is what courts look to when determining the "intent" of a law, when a law's constitutionality is questioned. The legislative record is always what the rest of us should look to when trying to understand "why" any law has been passed, especially a law which doesn't actually (as amended) say anything which wasn't already in the law to begin with.

The legislative record, which includes the original unamended version, the statements of Arizona legislators, the governor, and law enforcement officials, make it very clear that the law is intended to target Mexican-looking individuals, regardless of their behaviour, in an effort to identify those Mexican-looking individuals who are also in the state illegally.

That intent, and the clear and publicly announced plans by several state law enforcement officially to target anyone who "looks like they might be illegal", is demonstrably racist, and is extremely likely to have a detrimental effect on actual law enforcement and crime-reduction activities.

As you said, I don't know why they passed it because it changed nothing!

Well, that's sort of my point. The original version of the bill, which caused all the uproar, violated federal due process by allowing police to ask for ID from anyone, regardless of probably cause. In order to try and quell that uproar, and to bring their law into federal legality, they had to change it. But they didn't want to look "soft on crime" by simply repealing it. Makes you question their intent, doesn't it?

You did, or at least you defended other people doing so. See your comment of Aug 23 12:53 PM, which I've previously quoted.

Sorry, you are implying exactly that. When you jump from "all Mexicans" to "illegal immigrants," you are making the racist assumption that those two groups are the same. How about the assumption that all African-Americans are gang members? That assumption is no more racist than yours.

. What the others are saying is that you can't tell who is illegal by looking at them. There are millions of legal Mexicans, Latinos, Hispanics, Central Americans, South Americans, &c, in the US who all share similar physical characteristics. I'm confident that there are many illegals in the US who look quite WASPish (or Asian, or African, or Slavic, or ...).

Yes I undestand that. your the only one here that is respectful of other people.

The reason people think that illegal imigrants are dangerous/a threat is because they have come to our country illegally, they have committed a crime already why wouldn't they do it again?

And how do you know whether someone is an illegal immigrant, a legal immigrant, or a natural born U.S. citizen? Chew on that for a while.

I would like to continue this conversation with respect towards one another. I respect you. Would you do the same to me?

Yes. The rhetorical points are there specifically to make the point. You realize that I know nothing about you personally (and you're even more aware of that now!). There's no way that I can judge either your intent, or even your behaviour without known more about you than the fact that you look just like a yellow robot.

I just would like to make it clear that I am not a racist nor do i think you can judge a person by the color of there skin.

Thank you for clarifying your original comment (below, Aug 24 2:20 PM). I have no wish to label you as a racist or anything else.

But you did! On Aug 23, 2010 12:53 PM, you wrote,

when you see a person with a large van full of Mexican people with a Mexico license plate, A cop's first thought is if they are legal or not.

That statement is what started this whole discussion. Either you yourself are making a racist judgement, or you're saying that all Arizona police officers are (and should be) racist.

Judging a person because of their membership in a particular national, ethnic, or racial group is racist. Just because you don't consider yourself racist doesn't mean that you\r statements won't lead other people to conclude that you are.

It is a police officers job. They need to find out if they are illegal or not and the law clearly said (you have probably read or atleast live in Arizona) that police officers are aloud to inquire about people that they may think to be an illegal imigrant. It is the same thing as a police officer going over to a hooker and talks to her about being a hooker. (weird example)

The original language of the bill allowed police to illegally (violation of due process) ask someone for identification under any and all circumstances. The amendments passed in the wake of the international recognition of that illegality limit those inquiries to when an individual has already been detained for suspicion of some other illegal activity.

Your example is actually out of line. Unless the officer actually observes the person soliciting, they have no right to detain them. Sure, they can go and say hello or suggest that they move on, but they cannot exercise anything involved in detention (for example, asking for ID).

Actually, it is specifically not. A police officer's job is to investigate or prevent crime when he or she sees actual criminal behaviour. Driving a car when your skin is brown is not criminal behaviour. Driving a car with a validly registered out of state, or even out of country, license plate is not criminal behaviour. Therefore, those activities cannot be used by the police to "guess" whether the individual involved is a legal resident or not.

I did not say it was illegal to drive a car if you are dark skinned. Also if you hearsd, the law allows police officers to investigate if they are suspicious about somebody

You're right. You didn't say it was illegal. What you said (implied) was that it should be perfectly okay for police to stop someone just because they are dark skinned.

Presumably, you also support the Torrance (L.A.) police doing the same. After all, in L.A., if you see a car full of African-American men, a cops first thought is that they're all gang members.

I did not imply and did not say and have no physical proof that I did which i did not.

Then please clarify exactly what you meant when you wrote (Aug 23, 2010. 12:53 PM):

when you see a person with a large van full of Mexican people with a Mexico license plate, A cop's first thought is if they are legal or not.

As read, you are implying that is perfectly fine for a police officer to stop a vehicle containing Mexican (or actually, just Mexican-looking) people, even if that vehicle is being driven perfectly legally.

If you were implying something else, then you should clarify it.

I would like to apologize for my dumb comment. I do admit that it sounded racist. Please don't label me as a racist. Again I apologize.

I don't want to label you as anything (except maybe a yellow robot lover :-). Thank you; I will go back to some of my own comments above and acknowledge this.

It is legal for an officer to ask for identification from anyone. I'm not being racist. It said in the bill that it i legal for officers to ask for suspected illegal imigrants id. Would it be illegal to ask for there ID if he was simply pulling him over for speeding?

Pulling someone over for speeding is precisely the "stop and detain" under which asking for ID is legal.

It is not legal for a police officer to stop you and require identification if there is no probable cause that you are engaged in illegal activity. Walking while black or brown does not constitute probable cause.

You keep implying that I am racist which am not.

Okay. I just saw your 2:20 PM comment above. Thank you for clarifying. I will go back to a few of my earlier comments and acknowledge that.

Just out of curiosity, have you actually read the law? if you hane not, you have no place in this conversation.

Yes, I have, both the original text and as amended. Scroll down to find the original discussion (May 15, 2010. 10:56 PM). Have you?

The reason people think that illegal imigrants are dangerous/a threat is, they come to our country illegally. They have already committed a crime so why wouldn't they do it again?

You might consider looking up the definition of the word, and figure out for yourself. Or are you just another ignorant white American who doesn't know what a book is?

NO! I Think that it is fine to come to our country LEGALLY but it is a crime coming here ILEGALLY.