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Not crazy about the new picture layout. Answered

It's been a few days now & I've viewed quite a few things in that time both on my laptop & mobile and having given it some thought and a few days to get used to it I have to say that the new picture layout really does not tick the boxes for me.
I can understand the desire to improve the layout where possible & I can understand wanting to show off the pictures at their best but it has been done at the cost of ease of use of the site.
it works fine on 'ibles with only two or three pictures to a step but what seems to have been forgotten is that many 'ibles have a large number of pictures to each step meaning that the viewer has to scroll through all the pictures before getting to any text then scroll all the way back up again to refer to any pictures being described, on some 'ibles this may not be a problem but on many others I predict it will.
The reason for the change has been given that "We wanted something that emphasizes your images in a format that is a bit more contemporary." which is all very well but I feel that the end result may well be that many images get overlooked altogether in an effort to get to the actual text of the 'ible & some 'ibles may simply get clicked away from because viewer's get tired of scrolling through image upon image to find out just what the 'ible is really about, I know I have already been guilty of this on at least one occasion in the last few days.
I guess if the layout remains members will have to bear this in mind & decide on that basis how many images they will use but I can see 'ibles that have large numbers of images particularly in the introduction getting fewer repeat visits than when we could simply click & choose the images we wanted to view in greater detail.
If I were able to choose between the old layout & the new one both to view & create 'ibles  I'm afraid I have to say that based on what I have seen over the last few days I would choose the old layout.
i appreciate that HQ is constantly looking for ways to improve the site & a lot of hard work & thought is put into these things but on this occasion for me at least it has had a negative impact.

Discussions

New release went out today to address one of the primary concerns raised in this thread. There should now be a "show more pictures" button that limits the number of photos shown when viewing all steps. As always, if you find a bug, please send it over to the bugs forum for fun and profit.

The 21/8/12 mod is a definite improvement, after breaking the old functionality. I'm not sure if it goes far enough yet, but the next few days should tell us.

I pointed this out at the time. I was told it would rarely be an issue. It's really, really annoying.

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Attmos

5 years ago

I had never thought about it that way but what you're saying does make some sense. I love having all the big pictures to look at, but when really trying to use an 'Ible with a lot of pictures it's difficult scrolling back and forth to read and reference pictures. Maybe a happy medium of ,say 5 best pictures displayed outright per step. Then all pictures after five be displayed in the old style.

i like the new style.

"About:I am an Intern here at Instructables and I have a lot of fun! "

astroturfing....

I was under the impression this forum topic was created so people could post their opinions about the new layout I don't see why my working for Instructables has anything to do with it. I didn't say "I work for Instructables and I think their new layout is perfect." I simply said that I like it too and I do. I think it is a nice way to see Photo Instructables.

I, personally, find it insulting that my opinion is being discounted purely on the basis of which room I happen to be in when I express it, and I wouldn't be surprised if Penoloply felt the same way, but is (now that I've met her) just too nice to say so.

I agree. People don't check their opinions at the door to harmoniously become a "yes-man" when they take employment or become affiliated in any way with a company. I've never been shy to give my opinion in a medium that is discussing business decisions, nor have I ever been in a situation where my opinion would be deemed less important than those who use the services provided. There should be no exception here at Instructables.

That's not the point. By definition, the opinions on a product of employees/affiliates of the company that produced it are not external to the company. It should be intuitive why this is so, and why outside opinions are necessary and vital.

Dismissing the official opinion of the Company is one thing, but to dismiss everyone's opinion (including Interns and CT) is going too far. I fail to see why someone like Penolopy couldn't have an opinion contrary to her place of employment, however it just so happens that she (along with many others) like the change. Same goes for the Development Team. Its not unheard of for employees to make changes that they don't like or agree with. You do them because its your job and you don't contribute to a forum with your high regard for it as a result. So what's necessary and vital is the opinions of the collective group. To infer by your opinion, that someone who's been a member for a month can provide a more credible assessment of this site, than a staff member, Intern or CT makes no sense. The truly ironic part of most of the complaints on this page is they are not even talking about their own Instructables. They've taken the stance to complain for other members who haven't complained. As I had said before (in another comment), I would be more interested in hearing the complaints of members who's Instructables have been ruined as a result of this change.

To infer by your opinion, that someone who's been a member for a month can provide a more credible assessment of this site, than a staff member, Intern or CT makes no sense.

That depends: if you want to know how casual visitors experience the site the opinion of someone who is new is probably more representative.

When I first tried using the site, I ran into all kinds of bugs and stuff that's counterintuitive as pluck; right now, all of that is getting harder and harder to notice and point out because I've gotten used to it. But the bugs are still there. And they may very well make newcomers give up.

If that's the case, I can say that the member who's been here (not quite) a month, likes the change. Penolopy simply acknowledged the new member (since no one else did) by saying that she liked the change too and it became a big debate over who's opinions were important. She's a genuinely nice person who takes the time to make new members feel welcome and it was unnecessarily rude of anyone to make her feel any less welcome.

Using that site as a response / argument invites a person to use it back at you (which I could). However, it wouldn't achieve anything, it would just prolong pointless-bickering.
Interesting reading though, my sister would like it.

L

I would be honestly interested to see which logical fallacy you think I have committed in the course of the conversation.

I don't think pointing out fallacies is a fallacy.

If I take your post of a link to be part of a debate / discussion, or otherwise an argument, then I could interpret it as follows:
(But you should really define what you meant more clearly, because I'm guessing here)

>fallacy-fallacy - you post the link to imply or accuse a logical-fallacy for the purpose of establishing it to be wrong.
>tu-quoque - "You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism" - yes?
> ad-hominem - You attacked your opponent's character or personal traits instead of engaging with their argument.

L

I was saying Canuck's last paragraph was an appeal to emotion, not a valid argument against the comments she's disliking.

> Not applicable. I didn't say "this argument contains a fallacy, therefore the whole thing is wrong," I said "this argument contains a fallacy."

> No. I didn't turn anything on the accuser. I pointed out a fallacy - hardly "answering criticism with criticism."

> Pointing out a person's logical fallacy is the exact opposite of an ad hominem.

You can't very well declare that pointing out someone's faulty logic is itself indicative of a logically unsound position...

"I was saying Canuck's last paragraph was an appeal to emotion, not a valid argument against the comments she's disliking."

There was only one paragraph. If you meant sentence, then my last sentence was not fallacious.

Fact: Penolopy IS a genuinely nice person.

Fact: She takes the time to make new members feel welcome.

Fact: Being rude to her was unnecessary.

Where's the fallacy?

In short: in responding to a logical argument with irrelevant issues of etiquette/emotion (you're being rude/mean).

Ah, yes, I wrote that after scrolling down. I seem to have imagined a line break that wasn't there.

On to substantive issues:

First, "facts" one and two are actually opinions (not to mention that "fact" three includes the assumption that I was rude to her).

I made a logical argument. I assumed you were responding to my argument, which seemed to me a reasonable enough assumption. If your comment was meant to imply that my argument is unsound or that I am in the wrong logically, then the last comment to which I refer simply appealed to emotions (stop being mean to her! She's nice and you're unnecessarily rude!) rather than making an actual argument.

If, however, you're not claiming any sort of formal logical basis for quibbling with my position (and merely querulous issues of etiquette), there's no logical fallacy (just an irrelevant comment).

Do you agree with my previous statement : "However, it wouldn't achieve anything, it would just prolong pointless-bickering."?

L

I don't really agree that the (so-far) civil discussion we've (as in you/I/Canucks) been having is "pointless bickering." However, if you and/or canucks do, or don't wish to converse anymore, I'm fine with stopping.

What is the point?
It seems to be about a person's character, and I can't see anyone winning arguments around that.

"Penolopy Bulnick says: I like it too" is where we started, and look where we've got from differing opinions on what/why. It's not good.

L

actually, I started this pointless debate by saying I liked the new style. I really wish i hadn't, because now i get an email every day updating me on all the new complaints added to it. I think,Hey,maybe I got a comment from someone who checked out something I did, but all I find is more replies to this conversation.why is it every time i seem to come into a forum type environment, it always turns out to be people arguing over the smallest things. Everyone replying to this post has spent way to much of there free time getting nowhere, Including me. So be a pal, if you Still want to reply to this or any other comment above, do me a favor and post a fresh comment instead. Thanks a lot and I hope you all choose to find better things to do with your time.

I was trying to "turn it down" (people arguing over the smallest things) - You could post a topic on "threads being hijacked" (because now i get an email every day-) I just delete them, but other people may appreciate the value of your experience.

L

I too notice that Penolopy  takes the time to make new members feel welcome, and I would say that is part of the internship.
Your comment reminded me that she usually uses at least one exclamation mark in comments, so maybe she isn't that enthusiastic about the new layout after all (in saying only "I like it too")?

L

Lol! I was trying to reply to crapsoup without drawing attention to myself. Guess you could say that didn't work.

You should have nothing to feel sorry about. :-)

Yes, it's hard to keep a low-profile with all these sharp-eyed people about...

L

Whoa, I was speaking of 'someone who's been a member for a month' in a very general sense, not thinking of anyone in particular. If anyone, I was thinking of myself, being a new member.

I don't doubt that Penolopy is a nice person, I'm not sure why you are telling that she is. And I don't want to get into all this stuff about who has been rude or nice to whom.
I just want to give my opinion on the new layout and the way it's been discussed here. That's all.

I am not dismissing everyone's opinion.

I am saying there is an inherent conflict of interest here.

Because there _is_.

I, personally, find it insulting that 1) people claim not to see the difference and 2) the "I'm insulted" card is being used to shut down discussion.

I'm not trying to shut it down, I just don't want my personal opinion dismissed as worthless, or to be classified as some sort of corporate shill, just because I happen to be posting from a particular location, and at the same time, these people are complaining that they are not being respected!

Why is the individual opinion of any of the nay-sayers worth more than mine?

As far as I am aware, the only people who actively dislike this new format are on this topic, and the majority of the views registered for this topic are down to the posters on the topic, rather than other members who are interested in the topic.

Do the maths - a handful of members don't like it, versus hundreds of thousands visitors who have started staying longer, and reading more projects, since the change, then the conclusion is obvious; the change is going to stay.

All if which is a long way of saying, I'm not trying to shut the topic down, I'm simply not going to stay part of it. If anybody else wants to join in, they're welcome.

Strawmen.

I neither dismissed your personal opinion as worthless, nor classified you as a corporate shill, nor said your opinion counts as less than someone else's.

But I DID say that staff opinions don't count as user opinions. They are _staff opinions_. As such, they don't go in the same box as "user opinions."

Staff !== regular users.

I don't understand why that's a controversial statement. It's actually definitional. You don't count as non-affiliated when you're affiliated, and I hope you're not questioning the necessity or usefulness of non-affiliated opinions.

And who's complaining that they are not being respected? Certainly none of the posters on the thread who dislike the format.

>the only people who actively dislike this new format are on this topic

Actually, no. I have spoken with several more (apparently, a statement worthy of much weight).

>Do the maths

So, you do have the data?

You don't see why working for Instructables has anything to do with it ?

Really ?

Most, if not all, of us are talking about step-by-steps, where the flow has broken down in the content/context ., not photo-ibles.

I, personally, like seeing all the photos for both photo and step-by-step Instructables.

I'm not sure you will feel the same way when you are trying to view an 'ible with a large number of step images & you find yourself scrolling up & down constantly to refer back to the relevant images.
Nor am I sure you will feel the same when you try to view step by step 'ibles on a mobile device & find you can't see any image comments & you are constantly opening images you didn't intend to.
As Steveastrouk says most if not all the comments here are referring to the negative impact the update has had on step by step 'ibles. the flow & ease of viewing whilst reading has been entirely lost.

I'm fairly sure that the lack of positive comments is more down to the twin facts that few people go onto forums to praise changes, and those that have don't want the same sort of reception that Penoloply got.

+1.

Call me biased if you really want, but in truth I'm as critical of HQ as most, but less angry and more constructive about it. I think the new image layout changes are for the better. Flawed in a few cases, but I think the idea of moving away from users just using secondary images as a dumping ground is a good idea. I do hope they fix the excessive images for past Ibles though, and the non-standard width:height cropping issues.

One last point... it's not a democracy, it's a business. They'll make decisions based on Google analytics stats not minority power user's ranty views.

Y'know, at some point, accusing everyone who disagrees of "ranting" stops being annoying and verges toward gaslighting.

I don't think that comment was aimed at "everyone", do you?

I think the comment was aimed at multiple people holding the opposite opinion, given the plurality of "views."

I'm not angry although being accused of it can raise my ire.
I want to be constructive but again it is difficult when someone has decided for me that I use secondary images as a dumping ground, that everyone has the equipment & skills to produce higher quality images & the assertion that it is OK to completely disregard so many peoples hard work with comments like "there are some that are silly to the point of being unreadable" which the author presumably thought was witty.
Personally I found it crass & insulting to all the members whose work provides the vast majority of content for the site, the content which brings people to the site. the content that makes it worthwhile paying to advertise on the site, the content that pays directly that authors wages because without it there would be no content, no site, no advertisers & no job.
I for one am fully aware it is a business & as such don't expect a vote of the entire membership every time someone wants to make a change, however having been involved in the constant development of not one but three sites when I worked in IT I am also aware that digging in of heels, ignoring criticism & disregarding negative impact IS NOT the way to impress or satisfy your customers.
That is why we beta tested everything on a variety of people not involved in the IT team & quite a number of whom were not even our own employees, if anything showed ANY negative impact it was shelved until it could be made to work properly not just rolled out & to the devil with the consequences.

I don't think your name was mentioned RE dumping secondary images. You not being guilty of that though, does not make others not guilty of it. Many do. I certainly do. I think the new layout will encourage me to use secondary images better, that's why I like the new layout. I would go back and correct my old Instructables, but Wilgubeast has already said that they're looking in to adding a "More Images" button to cut the flow off after several large pictures. It sounds to me, contrary to your accusations, like they're listening.

RE satisfying customers. The vocal ones on the forum (you, me, 10 others) are probably less than 0.0001% of users. And likely 0.001% of authors. True, many unhappy users may have not liked the change and chosen to put up with it, but with a user base where the majority are internet users passing through once or twice, the best way to tell if a feature is beneficial is to make the change and see how it affects traffic. A tonne of features that people are now happy to use and love were unpopular at the time. They stayed because they increased traffic. Have you seen a screenshot of the site from 1, 2 or 3 years ago? The changes to the front page caused a far bigger fuss than this, from a tiny tiny tiny proportion of the user base.

"Guilty" ? Of a new offence. Its rare that you can be retrospectively guilty.