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I volunteer to gather eyewitness info on water into hydrogen. Answered

I'm a beginning engineering student and my dad is also an engineer. He is pretty skeptical and he recently told me of someone he knows who is using electrolysis to get better gas mileage in a Toyota pickup. I'm not sure, but it seems he is using secondary voltage to power the split and then burning it. He claims 60 mpg. If you guys would like to give me a series of questions/tests, I would love to go to my hometown and ask/perform them, then report back. Any takers?

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So I may in fact try this my question is has anyone tried platinum electrodes? I may have some in a back bin some ware. They seem to be the standard used in chem labs, I would love to hear some input from Kiteman on this. My other thought is that a 32 oz wide mouth Nalgene bottle would be a more robust container than the standard mason jar/juice bottle, my primary concern is weather it would react at all and temperature rating.

Any reccomendations for the best electrodes for electrolysis? I've tried aluminum and steel with decent results, but they seam to degrade quickly. Would stainless steel work?

I have a bit of an update. My dad's work buddy is doing something on these lines now. I don't have all the particulars yet, but will try to get them soon. I do have a question spurred by the story. Are you using some sort of hydrogen peroxide solution to bubble your air intake? He apparently is, and has reported gains. I've not yet substantiated anything, but am still interested. I'll try to get an answer for you on the electrode materials. My guess is a high electronegativity would lead to less degradation, but I can't claim to really know how the behavior changes under electromagnetic charge. What are you using as an electrolytic solution? It could be the culprit. Non-reactive metals might be the ticket in that case, but probably more expensive.

Not using the Hydrogen Peroxide solution for the air inake, but certainly interested. I am using a distilled water and pure baking soda solution in the device. I tried using salt, with apparent success, but decided I might be making chlorine gas, and worried about sodium buildup on the throttle-body, so I went to baking soda.

SODIUM build-up? Baking soda is SODIUM bicarbonate.

I know, but the salt method got crusty real quit. The baking soda doesn't seem to build up like that.

Did you try stainless in baking soda yet? I was reviewing my set-up and recalled that stainless has a 1g chloride per liter resistance. BAKING SODA DOSN'T HAVE CHLORINE! Wow, do I feel stupid. That's probably why my electrode only lasted 8 hours.

Haven't tried stainless yet, but that's probably the next step. My aluminum's done ok, but only lasts about 20 hours. Someone suggested chrome-moly, but I couldn't afford much of that.

As some of you have already seen and posted there, I have an instructable on building your own system.
https://www.instructables.com/id/HHO-car-adaptation/
I got the same results as skunkbait(about 7mpg increase) but have yet to blow up anything with a flashback.
Others have told me the best they got was a 50% increase in milage and it won't get better due to various engine sensors. I concur with this as my robust but short lived stainless system got similar results. In short I am sceptical of 60mpg but with enough tinkering I guess its possible.

I have been doing a little research on this too. I have read that the platters in an old computer driver make good electrodes.

Correction " old computer hard drive"

A slight problem with my on demand system: I was using a hard plastic jar, which got a leak in it. Water and sludge got all in the alternator, killing it. Battery got low while I was driving. Electric fan quit working. When I got into stop and go traffic, car over-heated, split the radiator. Drove, then towed the car home. I guess I'll be driving my wifes' gas guzzler until monday or tuesday when I have time to fix the mess I made!

So having done a little bit of research on "on demand hydrogen generators" the basic idea is that you have a jar containing a mix of distiled watter and an electrolyte(typically baking soda) and 2 electrodes they are wired so as that once the engine is started they feed directly off the 12V system, this is the simplest design I have heard of there are more complex less scientificaly sound devices described on the internet. The basic idea is that the hydrogen helps to more completely burn the gas, and additionally a small amount of watter vapor is also introduced to the combustion chamber, which causes the gas/air mixture to compress more before ignition, no I don't have the back ground to see how this would help mpg but this is part of the claim as to why it happens. Do a search for watter4gas, theres torrents, if I get around to testing it this summer and it actually works I'll pay the guy but it stinks of scam to me.

No offense intended to bowakowa but y'all are asking one person to do all the work. Here is a link to Stan Meyer's basic patent. The more people who read that, the sooner it will be understood. If you want to find all his patents, search Google Patents for "Stanley A. Meyer"

In a nutshell, Meyer claimed to be able to generate HHO thousands of times more efficiently than normal, direct current, electrolysis. Supposedly this was done by careful control of the current. All I can think of is he established something like an ultrasonic separation of the molecules by pulsing the power just right.

He also invented a way to feed the water directly to the combustion cylinders of a normal automobile engine, create HHO inside his special injector, and burn it immediately, thereby eliminating HHO storage and any possibility of HHO explosion anywhere except inside the cylinders.

If his research was legit, and it can be recreated,...

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PKM

10 years ago

As bowakowa seems to be taking the right approach to this problem and not claiming anything that breaks the laws of physics, I'm game. (To clarify for everyone saying "you can't get more energy out than you put in"- it's entirely true you won't get more energy out of just the H2:O2 mix than you put in to electrolyse it, but it's possible that adding it to a petrol engine will increase the efficiency of the petrol engine enough to offset the energy loss in electrolysis, for instance by promoting more complete combustion of the petrol or changing the engine temperature. Please, distinguish between "the energy coming out of burning the hydrogen" and "the extra useful energy coming out of the petrol due to more efficient use in the engine".) FIrstly, I would suggest you find a test of statistical significance to determine how many mpg readings you would need to take to get a significant result. This is likely to be quite a lot. If you're an engineering student you should probably know these? Secondly, the more rigorous you can be in your testing, the better- see if you can find a garage that will let you use a dyno, exhaust gas testers etc. to test your car better than you can by just driving it. Your engine temperature, revs, battery voltage over time and a lot of other factors will be important here. Thirdly, if you are planning to run this device for a while I suggest you have a mechanic check out your engine- if, for instance, the water you are electrolysing is salty then small quantities of chlorine are released as well as hydrogen and oxygen, and chlorine will not be good for your engine. Ultimately, however, all we really need to see is the increase in gas mileage- that's what everyone wants, after all.

I've been experimenting with electrolysis to separate hydrogen and oxygen out of water. I'm still trying to determine the best electrodes, and the best electrolyte mixture. My son and I came to sort-of understand the process while trying to 'soup up' a colloidal silver generator. I probably won't install the device on my wifes new truck until it is thoroughly proven, but it has done well on my $250 piece of crap, excuse for a car. I was skeptical too, but have seen gains of 4 to 7 mpg. That has been measured consistently over the last 3000 miles. Driving a 1990 mazda 323 I got 35 to 37 mpg, depending on how fast I drove. Now I get 41 to 44mpg with same driving patterns. I commute 130 miles per day, in low traffic, so not too many variables are involved. One time I got 47 mpg, but that has not been reproducible so I consider it a fluke. By the way, my 14 year old son built the device with ideas he gleaned from instructables and other sites.

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Patrik

10 years ago

There's no way to get around the conservation of energy principle, so no, you can't get more energy out of burning the H2 and O2 than it took to split water into H2 and O2 in the first place.

It *is* remotely possible that the engine might run more efficiently using the added H2 and O2. E.g. you might get a more complete combustion of the gasoline or somesuch. This would likely be a fairly subtle effect though.

I've been learning a bit more about the enthalpies of dissociation and such. I suppose now the claim is a new method of dissociation that uses less joules for dissociation. I am even more skeptical at this point, as this seems to me a very wild claim. Who has verifiably replicated his results?

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jtlowe

10 years ago

If you look up "Stanley Meyers" on You TUbe you will find videos describing his hydrogen "Fracturing" process which separates water into it's component parts at a fraction of the energy prevouisly used by electrolysis alone. I have downloaded his patents and tried to understand the theory. What I am guessing is that a high frequency of high voltage, but only a positive swing. This in an increasing amplitude then repeated again and again. This creates a resonance with the water molecule which then reaches a peak energy enough to break the covalent bonds. This at a lower enerfy than simply trying to force them apart. Then he strips the free electrons away from the reaction and excites the remaining gaseous ions with magnetic or laser energy to improve the recombination when it is used for either a rocket or for a combustion engine. Unfortunately Meyers died of a brain anurism in 1998. His insights may enlighten you on how this may be possible to increase the mileage on the Toyota. Although I believe in the conservation of energy, sometimes it is simply a source not yet understood that would indicate an energy resource amd thus balance our equations. Until then one must keep an open mind to new unexplained ideas.

tell ya dad to cheak out you tube, vid of them useing small units on big comersial trucks saving $60 fuel a day and its just feed in threw the air filter. i made a cell coz i like stuff that go,s bang!

You need to know how much gas is being burned too, it's 60 miles per (gallon of gasoline & unknown quantity of hydrogen). Come to think of it, get as much raw data as you can. You might also want to question the energy efficiency of producing hydrogen? And where does the seconday voltage come from? L

Well, its my understanding that the voltage is amplified by the pickup coil and fed to the spark plugs, this is commonly referred to as secondary voltage, I think, as the plugs need very high voltage to spark across the gap. This is the current in a car which can kill you. Is it important how much hydrogen is being burned? If a simple gallon of gas gives, let's say 28 mpg, and some of the energy is used by the alternator to split the water molecules, resulting in more energy available per gallon of gas, isn't that the point? The claim is the recapture of wasted energy, I think, in hydrogen form, produced on board. I will try to get as much info, footage, pics, etc. as possible if I can set up a meeting. By the way, I'm pretty skeptical about this, but willing to allow for being proved wrong.

Conservation of energy
The power needed to electrolyse the water is coming from the gasoline. You cannot get more enery out of H2 and O2 than it took to produce it from H2O.
How is the electricity being 'wasted', does it leak out of the engine-well and leave a trail down the road?
Get as much data as you can, and ask as many questions. E.g. does the guy need to keep putting the battery on charge overnight, what current flow is used for electrolysis, what is the rate of gas generation, how is fuel consumption measured etc.

L

my thought as the energy wasted thing, now that I think about it, is that the original energy state was chemical, transduced to kinetic, then transduced to electrical, the alternator is a mechanical load on the engine, and must also be able to handle peak loads, so it might be overdesigned, as the alternator spins continuously, but the actual output is regulated before being sent to the battery, to regulate voltage there. Perhaps this redirected energy is lost as heat through the alternator coil. I'm almost afraid to post this, as it seems a bit shaky, and I don't really know thermoelectric theories or whatnot, but that's my line of thinking. I can't really say I think recovering this amount of energy would increase efficiency so much

Is this turbocharged? Ask him if he's considered using a turbo to recover waste energy from the exhaust. L

And of course the refutation commonly heard is that it takes more energy to split the molecule than is produced by combusting the result.

. I would think that the main thing would to be to verify all sources of energy input. Is this "secondary voltage" being powered by the gasoline or possibly a storage battery that is recharged from the grid? . Once you have eliminated all power sources, except petrol and water, check the MPG. . I have yet to see a _reasonably sized_ electrolysis (or any other kind of olysis) unit that would crack enough water to provide much of a power boost, much less run a car.